If you can work you should... But why?

[Tryingtokeepgoing]

So, Rachel Reeves is of the opinion that if you can work you should. However, there are millions of us in the 50+ bracket who can work, but don't need or want to work. We are financially self sufficent, happily (ish) paying tax and spending money supporting the services economy on which so much of the country depends. Why should we work? Altruistically, I see my choice not to work as creating opportunities for progression for others...

Why should we work?
What is achieved by encouraging us to work?
If there are benefits to us working, how can she incentivise us to do so?

caveat - I am not a fan of the Telegraph, but it is a direct quote

“If you can work, you should work,” she said after official figures showed worklessness in Britain rose to its highest level in more than a decade.

You need 35 years to get a state pension.

The social contract is gone...broken. People can no longer aspire to anything but working for decades until they are utterly worn out and then either have a short retirement in poor health or no retirement at all. People work for long hours for wages that are so low they can't afford to buy a house. People work just to survive a lot of the time. The Reeves woman can bang on about work as much as she likes but she knows nothing of the reality of life in this country for most people. If people find a way to not spend their entire existence shackled to horrible workplaces and vile employers who take every opportunity to exploit them then that's fine. Covid made us all slow down a bit and find out about leading simpler lives and work is and should be seen as a lesser priority than actual enjoyment of living and spending precious time with our families and friends.

It's not as straightforward as that for anyone who started work before 2016. Many need to pay more than 35 years (me included), it's an individual calculation that you will only find your answer to by logging onto gov.uk.

This is true but unhelpful when you hit an age you can never hit full pension.
So I was full time til children, had to go part time, husband left, had to stay part time. By this point I already know I'll never get 40+ years in, so pointless trying now. My life panned out so that I could stay part time. So I did.

There are I'm sure better ways of making one qualify for full state pension, but this isnt it.

I've had the option of making up the years I missed, I couldn't afford it then, and then the SP age increased so I wasn't prepared to lob thousands of pounds at my missing contributions to quite possibly never seeing it. I'd rather those thousands in savings and when it reaches an amount, I'll probably just quit work. And wait til state pension kicks in, and whatever benefits I get to make up the difference. And if none by then, I'll just keep working.

It says 35 years on there. I’ve been predicted a full pension on 37 years and it clearly says l have paid enough NI for this

That's great for you but it isn't the case for everyone so it's important people log on and get their own personalised forecast rather than assuming they have enough years.

It’s not that difficult to get enough years though. You only need to be earning at the lower earnings limit (currently about £6,400 pa) to get full NI credits. The only caveat is that if you miss any months it won’t be a full year. But you can pay for missing months I think. So lots of people who pay no NI/very little NI will still accrue the full entitlement by SPA. Also certain benefits give you full NI credits (child benefit, until the child is 12, being one). So you don’t even need to be working to get some credits. Then anyone over SPA who doesn’t have a minimum income and doesn’t have savings will get pension credit anyway.

I’m not arguing with that because it means people on low salaries or who cannot work due to caring responsibilities still get a minimum income in old age. But it all needs to be funded somehow which is the issue.

No, your NI money goes to people who are pensioners now. It is not put aside into your own personal pot to be claimed later on

I don’t really see how this is different to my private pension. Every month I pay, and my employer pays, NI towards a number of things, including my state pension.

If I don’t pay NI, every month, for 1 year, totalling 35 years, I don’t get it. As far as I am concerned I’m paying into it, and they owe me it. How they do it is irrelevant to me, I don’t care. You can’t tax me for 35+ years, telling me I’m getting a pension, then means test me.

Honestly, Labour are going to spend spend spend on the public sector and screw everyone down to pay for it.

I’ve got one more DC to get to Uni, then I think I’m going to look at leaving. I’ve already lived in 4 other countries, and I’m on at my DH to move abroad again and have a better quality of life.

We do what we can here, but it’s just work-pay tax-spend extortionate amount of money to do anything. It’s actually just shit.

This country is now out of control with low pay, working till you drop dead till 70, and all the crime. I mean, where else in the world, apart from some war torn desperate country, would you now be scared to walk down the street with your child and worry about being stabbed?

It’s a shit show.

You are taking her words literally. By doing so, you are saying she expects a fit 99 year old to work, I don't think so.

It might be more useful to think of the state pension in terms of an insurance policy and the national insurance that you pay is more like the premiums for an insurance policy.
It benefits society as a whole to spread the cost of supporting those who are above working age, in the same way that society as a whole benefits by spreading the cost of healthcare and education. A private pension is a different kind of thing to the state pension.

Of course she’s not expecting fit 99 year olds to work. That’s quite an extreme, some would deliberately obtuse, interpretation. I do think she does think that the many of who have chosen not to work at 50 something are somehow a pool of resource to be tapped. So, I asked how she would / could incentive use us back to work.

Of course, Labour being Labour, I expect they’ll resort to the stick rather than the carrot to change behaviour - they have an inherent authoritarian streak. It’s before my time, but my grandparents in particular, as well as my parents, used to speak of the top rate of tax at 83%, and 98% tax on unearned income, at the equivalent of only £200k or so today. Even the basic rate of income tax was 35% back then…But like many, I have a plan for that as well.

Agree in terms of inheriting pensions but it also means I have a policy I have paid into for many, many years and it is totally and utterly unacceptable if the terms of the policy were changed so much that I couldn't claim on it after all because I have worked & saved and the only people entitled to claim are those who:

• did not save whilst working,
• did not work at all, or
• spent all their earnings already.

No, absolutely not okay. Where is the motivation to do the right thing and fulfil your part of the 'social contract' in that?

Very true, we are stuck with the moral hazard problem aren't we, perverse incentives etc 🤷🏻‍♀️

If the government wants more older people to stay in work they should start by changing the work culture. That means:

• addressing ageism in the workplace
• championing flexible/part-time/job share/remote working
• better work conditions for staff.

The Tories always championed rigid hours and office presence and allowed employers to pay crap wages and get away with treating staff poorly in general.

No wonder many older people decided to opt out.

Covid also reminded everyone that life is short and that alternative work patterns can work in many jobs but employers seem stuck in the past.

Well if you dont want to work fine just don't whinge if your relationship breaks up and you can't cope financially or you have pension issues or can't buy your expartner out

One thing I’m amazed at is how little teens work. Out of all my DS’s friends, he is the only one who had a p/t job in 6th Form. A couple of them got a job in a shop, but it was too physically tiring, so they left.

I work with a few Graduates and gap year students and they all cut their hours from F/T to P/T as it’s boring and too much.

I actually think a lot of youngsters don’t feel they need to work as they are getting money from their parents. Personally I think it’s the younger generation that need to start working harder. We’ve done our bit. I’ve never drawn a benefit, I’ve worked overseas 6 days a week to save money, and I’ve done 2 jobs at once.

My 21 year old DS has ( currently a Uni student) has really struggled to find work which really saddens me. he has only ever done one summer of work. My other three kids all worked from 16 though as have quite a lot of their friends. My other three all worked as cleaners at their school - cleaning shitty toilets where kids had deliberately blocked them up, stuffed sandwiches down the sink etc. Not pleasant work but I'm proud they stuck at it.

It’s a shame the article didn’t break down the numbers into those who don’t work but claim benefits vs those who don’t work but don’t claim because I suspect the latter is larger than most people imagine and relatively little is known about them and their motivations/ barriers ( partly because those vary a lot.). However they likely represent quite an unused skills stash.

@LaPalmaLlama there was research into the latter group as they have increased since covid. It was found contrary to expectation that the increase in those not working and not claiming benefits were not well off retired people, but people who had retired and were managing to eke out small savings and pensions until state retirement pension. I am this age and low paid and thinking very seriously of just quitting. I am not well off but can manage on the small savings I have and DPs minimum wage job wages.
The reason? I have had enough being treated like shit. The pressures on low paid staff keep increasing, and as you get older you get treated worse and worse. The public treat low paid staff badly as well. I have just had enough.

And there is no way I am working until state retirement age. My family have all been poor and we don't live long. I don't want to die a few years after I retire.

Same here. Both my mum and her mum died at 69. I am 56 now and hope to be at least partially retired by 60.

Yes, there is a minimum number you have to work, then a maximum number of years at full contribution, which is 44 years

When you check your pension forecast on gov.uk it says underneath that it’s important to carry on paying NI even if you’re entitled to the full pension at 67, with a list of reasons why (health, education etc). I’m not aware you can opt out though. That wouldn’t keep me in a mw job, or one I didn’t enjoy, I have to say.

Congrats on your retirement!