If you can work you should... But why?

[Tryingtokeepgoing]

So, Rachel Reeves is of the opinion that if you can work you should. However, there are millions of us in the 50+ bracket who can work, but don't need or want to work. We are financially self sufficent, happily (ish) paying tax and spending money supporting the services economy on which so much of the country depends. Why should we work? Altruistically, I see my choice not to work as creating opportunities for progression for others...

Why should we work?
What is achieved by encouraging us to work?
If there are benefits to us working, how can she incentivise us to do so?

caveat - I am not a fan of the Telegraph, but it is a direct quote

“If you can work, you should work,” she said after official figures showed worklessness in Britain rose to its highest level in more than a decade.

Many people seem to think that clamping down on benefit fraud will mean it will save the tax payers money... when in real terms, you wont see any money saved... you will still be taxed the same.
It is the same when people say that clamping down on people pretending to be ill/disabled means that the genuine will get more money... it really does not, and that is not how benefits work.

I have told my friend that they need to give up his flat and claim jointly at least because it’s dishonest to be claiming separately. I have also told her that there will be others who could use his flat and a housing shortage, but she insists they will get more money by claiming separately. She knows how I feel about it all actually but I have known her a long time and as I said, she is a friend. We don’t have to always agree with everything that a friend does.

Oh look were back to talking about benefits and benefits scroungers incl all those disabled people who aren’t ‘really’ disabled…..

Never mind that the % of fraud for PIP is extremely low.
Never mind that benefits themselves are extremely low (would you like to live on £800 a month?)
Yep people are falling over themselves to be on benefits instead of working…..

The only people I have known to be caught and charged with fraud have been couples who live together but claim separately. One couple got married and kept it quiet. The DWP found out about them from their Facebook.

To be honest, it does piss me off as I would find it helpful for my DP to live with me to help with my own health issues, but my money would be stopped if he did (he works, and has too much in savings).

Sorry if it seems I was having a go. Sometimes I don't understand how anyone can claim to be a friend to someone and hate how they live their life so much, but you have spoken to you friend about it. One day, it will all come undone for her. And I agree with you... that sort of fraud should be clamped down on.

true, mental health issues can be delibilitating and also can be used as a cast iron get out of jail free card
I also had a work ethic at that age, wanted to work and have money, but I was able to move into a room in a shared house for 15 pound a week bills included.
The trends towards living with your parents until you're in your 30s is surely driven primarily by the unaffordable cost of having a place of your own to live ☹️

I am sorry that you've found yourself in this position. It's is extremely unfair and infuriating.

I have experienced something similar and ended up becoming self employed. Not because I'm able to earn a lot, but because I've been written off as a mature woman. I also have a health condition which brings short but unpredictable loss of speech and balance. No one wants to employ me, so I work for myself, full time.

I don't claim benefits because I am able to work around the episodes and make up any time lost. Even if I was struggling to work I'm not eligible for benefits as I'm not disabled enough. The criteria are strict and fixed.

I feel strongly that if I had not had children I would be in a better position work wise. I don't regret it for a second, but pregnancy and maternity leave alone affected my standing at work. Then my DCs dad left unexpectedly, lost his job and there I was having to do it all and I had to go part time for a period.

I know people look at me and decide that my situation is my own fault. That I have made poor decisions, am not bright, or capable, or hardworking. But the truth is I worked hard at school and have an Oxbridge degree, I believed whole heartedly that DH was reliable and responsible, our DC were planned, he let us down horribly and that wasn't my fault, I am resourceful and hard working but it is very very hard to parent and work and do everything yourself, my health issues are not my fault......

@LucyintheSky21 what you’re describing are people who ARE chronically ill/disabled (at least in the eyes of the DWP).
Otherwise they’d be asked to look for a job and show that they are (eg letters showing they’ve attended interviews etc….).

I will not pass a judgement on your friend as I dont know them.

As a general comment about people who are disabled,
BUT please bear in mind that what you see when people are out and about is not how they feel on a day to day basis.
eg you might see me looking well enough in a shop agd wonder why I’m not working. What you dint see are the other 4 days after that I spend lying down trying to reciver. Or the fact I never cook etc….
Also bear in mind people who are ill mask being well.
That some conditions are variable. So not so bad one day but in huge pain/awful depressive thoughts fir the other 5 days etc….

You have no idea how much genuinely ill people fear that sort of snap judgement from people who don’t know them that well. Because 1- it’s not nice and 2- can put them in hot waters which will then take weeks or months to sort out. Which when you are chronically ill already is 20x harder to deal with then if they were healthy.

I feel strongly that if I had not had children I would be in a better position work wise
@Wishitwasstraightforward it is women who do the vital work of growing new humans and bringing them into the world, this work takes a huge toll on many of us.

I haven't felt that from many posters on this thread. Some yes, but not many.

I think that the past government and the media push that rhetoric because it suits them for people to be shortsighted enough to believe that there is a big issue wrt benefit cheats. It discourages many people from noticing that in fact the system is unjust, and feeling any responsibility to address inequality because they are so busy pointing fingers unfairly.

@XenoBitch Sorry too if I was a bit off with you as well. I didn’t mean to jump down your throat. It’s funny you say about being friends with someone and not liking what they do. I do feel a bit more like that lately, it has started to annoy me just because I really don’t agree with what they’re doing. My DH can’t stand either of them as he says he has to work so many hours and yet they seem to do pretty well without having to do a single thing. She is a lovely person and kind and we have known each other years, but this situation is something I really think is wrong.

I also know that as @MtClair has correctly said, some people don’t always show how they are feeling to the outside world. I am aware of this but I am talking about two people I know. Neither has a genuine condition, they will even joke about it. She feels tired a lot of the time but only because they sleep most of the day and aren’t very active, in my opinion. Anyway, I don’t want to take over this post. I was just making a point that plenty of people are bleeding the system, and to be clear, I am absolutely not talking about the genuine people who cannot work.

Absolutely.

Wouldn't it be nice to be respected for our ability to do that? Rather than so many men rolling their eyes and making fun of our menstrual cycle, making us feel dirty, and guilty for the effects on our body created by our ability to be capable of growing a baby. Then later doing something similar when the brutal effects of the menopause hit.

Assuming that the system needs the birth rate to be at a certain level it is pretty bloody ungrateful that we are disadvantaged in so many ways for being an essential part of that.

Trouble is- I don't know how to make it better!

But that is the thing, I do have a clue, I have two serious health conditions and am classed as disabled. Most disabled people are able to contribute to society, and most struggle to get a job, let alone a decent wage they deserve. Oh to be able to retire early! I work full time and do not get any means tested benefit. I have had to make some very hard choices.

I know I will get flamed for this but if you are burnt out at 18 after one years work....and can no longer manage to do ANY work at 18, why do you go on to have a child ? A child is very hard work but also very rewarding. That's why I do not understand how she can say she was too ill to work but years later decided to have a child? If she had the child already, that is another matter.

There is a different between having a family which you can support yourself and then falling on hard times due to unemployment, ill health etc to actively making a decision to intentionally have a child (and I am not saying this is the case here), which the state has to support. And yes that is a generalisation not an indepth expose!

If someone has paid into a pension scheme (which the state encourages) which affords them the opportunity to retire early, then good for them. If I could, I would. Mid to late 60's is too late to retire particularly for those in manual jobs. However the problem is that when this system was devised, it was calculated that all those in the workforce would work until the state retirement age and currently the percentage of the population that is nearing that, is much higher then when the scheme was devised, leaving fewer workers to contribute to the system, hence the increase in retirement age to try and compensate. Whilst those who retire early may get taxed on their pension, if they do not work, I don't believe they pay NI contributions and its the contributions that count towards pensions for them and others and not taxes.

You are making so many assumptions about the PP, it is pretty shite of you to continue.
You know nothing of her life.. and if her issues are severe enough to have stopped her from working for 2 decades, that is between her, her GP and the DWP. It is fuck all to do with you.

She offered her circumstances on a public posting and I responded on a public posting. I am entitled to my opinion.

And your opinion does and mine doesn't?

Yours is going to make someone feel like shit and like they are a burden. Why did you feel the need to do that?

Well you are having a right rant at different people tonight aren't you....lets just agree to disagree.

It's tricky. I'm semi retired; worked since I was 17 and I'm now 59. Worked in NMW jobs all my life, retail/factory/admin, and I'm tired. Not to mention a spinal condition and arthritis. I can't claim my state pension for another 8 years; I get PIP and have taken a couple of small private pensions. I have a small online business but don't earn enough from it to pay tax. I'd like to be contributing more, but I just don't have the energy after working since I was 17. I don't have kids so there was no career break either. I suspect I'm burnt out, like a lot of other women. I've made peace with that now, after feeling guilty that I should be doing more. I've accepted that I probably won't work again as an employee.

The various blows to the middle class - tuition fees, high housing costs, high cost of living, mean many of them are now the "squeezed middle", wondering what the point is. At the same time, huge unearned housing wealth plays another part here - making people wealthy on paper and less concerned about long term financial security

Yes house prices certainly make people (with a house) feel more wealthy and hence spend money in our services based economy, so no incentive to change this.

I think as a nation, after years and years of deteriorating living standards, we've just given up. There is no aspiration, no prospect of a better life. After Brexit, there isn't even the prospect of moving abroad for a better life. We're stuck in this dump, with all its inequality, and threadbare public services

^100%
My DD works in the NHS, a couple of years ago got her £1500 "bonus and a pay rise, at the same time tuition fees TH frozen, payment period extended to 40 years (from 30) and moved up another level in pension contributions, her take home pay barely changed.

Fast fwd 18months, now a band 6, £35k, rent through the roof, higher student loan repayments, extended to 40 years the loan period from 30y, £1000 in parking costs, a lot more stress, to the extent she often rings me crying with the work load, even on 35k, she has no hope of buying a house until i die - she feels going to Uni and working in the NHS is totally under valued and whilst she loves helping her patients, the workload is such that in many cases she simply cannot do this to the level required.

I want her to leave as i do not believe Labour will change a thing.

This.
Unfortunately I know too many people who moan about society whilst not contributing individually. Stay at home parents, volunteers, unpaid carers, family based free childcare etc contribute so much and are often unseen and undervalued. But there are so many others who expect to be funded without giving back where and when they could.

Take the money out of it and think about contributions to society instead. Everyone who can, should put in effort to add value to their society. None of us exists independently

Many people no longer feel part of society, the deal that we once had has gone, housing, health/dentistry, roads and education all in a mess.

Meanwhile, those at the top just keep getting wealthier and proportionately, manage to contribute less and less.

Even if someone doesn't volunteer/look after children etc or work, they are still contributing, paying various taxes, inc the never ending Council Tax bills, supporting local businesses.

A big part of the problem is that the funding for the current state pension relies on current people of working age continuing to work and pay into the system for c40-45yrs. You won’t be paying anything like the tax you’d be contributing if you were still working full time and the growing trend of people retiring/semi-retiring from 50 onwards is exacerbating that. So it doesn’t matter that you aren’t claiming benefIt’s etc, it’s that you aren’t paying in to the pot in the way it was projected you would.

I think this is an important point. Also, in terms of the government’s projections they will have factored in the length of career of those doing roles like medicine, where the training costs the govt/taxpayer a huge amount of money. If people doing these jobs retire at 50 rather than the projected 60-65 the cost of training per worker will be considerably higher.

But if you do not pay your 40+ years of NI, etc, you won't get the full pension - it will be pro-rata
Those retiring at 50/66 may well have private pensions they use until they get their (reduced) state pension
I have worked for 44+ years, so will get full whack when I reach retirement age (67). However, at mo, am using private pension and eeking it out!

I think it's a ticking timebomb. Elderly numbers increasing, not enough people working and paying taxes .I read an article in the Guardian last night stating that 8% of 15 year olds are on disability benefits mostly for autism/ adhd. If these kids have severe enough disabilities to not be able to work ( obviously some will be able to) and need financial support in terms of benefits etc, that is another massive area that needs to be addressed. This is just one group of people possibly needing lifelong support. I think the article said numbers had jumped 50% in a decade. We just won't have enough people paying tax.