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If you can work you should... But why?

460 replies

Tryingtokeepgoing · 15/08/2024 10:41

So, Rachel Reeves is of the opinion that if you can work you should. However, there are millions of us in the 50+ bracket who can work, but don't need or want to work. We are financially self sufficent, happily (ish) paying tax and spending money supporting the services economy on which so much of the country depends. Why should we work? Altruistically, I see my choice not to work as creating opportunities for progression for others...

Why should we work?
What is achieved by encouraging us to work?
If there are benefits to us working, how can she incentivise us to do so?

caveat - I am not a fan of the Telegraph, but it is a direct quote

“If you can work, you should work,” she said after official figures showed worklessness in Britain rose to its highest level in more than a decade.

How spiralling worklessness among British-born adults is fuelling a migration crisis

Starmer’s goal of driving up GDP is in jeopardy as 9.5m people are economically inactive

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/08/13/worklessness-crisis-britain-dangerously-dependent-foreign/

OP posts:
timenowplease · 15/08/2024 16:27

taxguru · 15/08/2024 15:59

It's the increase for everyone from 65 to 67/8 that's the killer. Women's pension ages were always going to rise to match the mens because of equality laws. The subsequent rise for all from 65 upwards is damaging to both men and women and that's what is probably causing more harm than good in terms of reducing tax revenue probably more than the pensions saved by people saying "sod it". Not to mention people in their early 60s too ill to work who'd probably have just either soldiered on another year or two or self funded for a year or two until hitting state pension age who now have to go on disability benefits instead as they can't finance several years of self funding.

Also working through peri / menopause. Menopause has knocked me for 6.

WhereIsBebèsChambre · 15/08/2024 16:28

usernother · 15/08/2024 16:12

I've said before on here, that I have worked with able parents who had never, ever had a job and had no intentions of ever getting one. Some members of this Forum seem to not believe that there are people who live like this, and that they can get round the benefits system. But they exist and this is who Reeves is talking about. I wish her luck.

This, but agree for some reason these people never ever actually exist according to mn!

Nadeed · 15/08/2024 16:29

She is not talking about people on benefits. If you are unemployed you are expected to spend all your time looking for a job. And most in this age group will not have kids and not be renting, the amount you get is tiny.
There are fewer people in this age claiming sickness benefits than there are younger people claiming sickness benefits.
Most people in this age group not working are self funding.

TeaMistress · 15/08/2024 16:30

Heaven forbid that people should choose a better quality of life and time with their families instead of spending more time in a hostile workplace on poor / minimum wage.

Salaries are now frequently so low that someone working full time and doing their bit for the economy still isn't able to afford to buy somewhere to live and to live a comfortable happy life. No. Those people working in poorly paid jobs can't afford to buy a home. People end up having to work more than one job just to afford extortionate rent for properties by overcharging landlords

Work is a relentless treadmill. It's often long hours for really shite pay with hostile managers and having to work with vile people. People are subjected to degrading performance management processes or absence management proceedings if they dare to be unwell... The social contract is broken. The reward for someone working full time seems to be non existent.

Is this life of perpetual work and endless backbreaking struggle supposed to be something we are meant to aspire to and be happy about. I'm certainly not.

People are being forced into working until they drop because the retirement goalposts are being moved further and further away by a government who want us to work until we are 70 and beyond knowing that we then have less and less chance of being well enough to enjoy a happy healthy retirement.

They know it's more likely that people will work later and later and die without having any retirement or barely any and even then what retirement they can eke out will be in poor health from long hard years of working fingers to the bone.

The government want us all to die before being able to claim a penny of the meagre state pension and salaries are often so low that people can't afford to save into a private pension either

Rachel Reeves is tone deaf and seems utterly oblivious to how offensive she is. She can sit in her ivory tower on her ridiculous £150k salary and her combined household income of about £320 k and she has the gall to try and lecture people about working. .

Livelovebehappy · 15/08/2024 16:36

Obviously she means those that are dependent on benefits/can’t work, as opposed to those who can afford to not work, and are none dependent on benefits. I’m with her on this one. Too many people claiming they are unfit to work, especially with MH issues. There are obviously many who cannot work, but equally many who try every trick in the book to excuse themselves from having to work. Too many GPs handing out sick notes on weak diagnosis’s, because half the time they can’t be arsed to refer them to the proper authorities, so it’s just easier to sign a piece of paper and sign people off.

Elphame · 15/08/2024 16:44

LindorDoubleChoc · 15/08/2024 13:59

@Elphame - you don't need to quote the opening post to make a comment. It is assumed you are replying to the OP unless you state otherwise. Imagine how long the thread would be if we all quoted the opening post before replying.

I'll quote if I want to!

CheezeGrater · 15/08/2024 17:12

Personally, I think it's inevitable that state pension will eventually be means tested

How can you means test a state pension? It’s not a benefit. I pay NI every month that pays into the pot. I have to contribute 35 years worth to get it. It’s really low compared to the rest of Europe. If you don’t contribute, you don’t get it, so it’s no different to a private pension.

I really don’t see how they can go after state pensions.

Kidsfortea · 15/08/2024 17:19

The trouble with raising retirement age is all the jobs that wear workers out both physically and mentally. Anyone in the trades that are doing the actual work. People that are on their feet all day like nurses, teachers etc. Your body wears out. It isn't practical. These people when they cannot access their state pension until much later will need to rely on sickness benefit. This must have been looked at by government departments and sickness must be cheaper.

GeraniumLeaves · 15/08/2024 17:23

I wouldn’t be in the job I’m in now if I thought I’d have to continue to SP retirement age. I don’t enjoy it, but it pays well and I’m of the mentality that I can do it up until retiring early. If retiring early became impossible or disincentivised, I would either change careers to something more rewarding but lower paid that I could sustain for a much longer period of time or possibly think about moving abroad for better quality of life that way.

There is simply no way I’d be contributing at the same rate into my late 60s or later - something would have to give.

Princessfluffy · 15/08/2024 17:23

When so many over 50s are unable to work for health reasons we need to do something about long covid and ME.

Numbers of sufferers are thought to be approx 2M in the UK but almost nothing is known about the disease and there are no treatments recognised by the NHS.

Nadeed · 15/08/2024 17:24

@Kidsfortea we are all supposed to retrain. Yeah sure employers want to take on someone who us 58 in an entry level job and a fucked up body.

Julen7 · 15/08/2024 17:24

WhereIsBebèsChambre · 15/08/2024 16:28

This, but agree for some reason these people never ever actually exist according to mn!

Exactly

JohnTheRevelator · 15/08/2024 17:27

The problem with this attitude is that it soons starts becoming 'You should work even if you are not really able to'. I am nearly 61, haven't worked for several years due to multiple health problems,and I can honestly say that I would not be able to hold down a job, even a part time one. I struggle enough just to get through the day without having the issue of going out to work. Having a shower and washing my hair takes me an hour and a half some days as I get so exhausted. I really worry that the government are going to start coming after people like me. I know that no employer in their right mind would want to employ someone like me who hasn't worked for several years,and is disabled with several quite serious health problems.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 15/08/2024 17:29

Livelovebehappy · 15/08/2024 16:36

Obviously she means those that are dependent on benefits/can’t work, as opposed to those who can afford to not work, and are none dependent on benefits. I’m with her on this one. Too many people claiming they are unfit to work, especially with MH issues. There are obviously many who cannot work, but equally many who try every trick in the book to excuse themselves from having to work. Too many GPs handing out sick notes on weak diagnosis’s, because half the time they can’t be arsed to refer them to the proper authorities, so it’s just easier to sign a piece of paper and sign people off.

Refer them to the proper authorities😂

I waited 20 months to see a neurologist. I was referred by my lovely gp.

18 months to see the CF service.

It’s not the referrals. It’s the waiting times.

Mainoo72 · 15/08/2024 17:31

I’ll be retired at 57 & am not really bothered what others think. I’ve saved extra over the years & will have paid the mortgage off. I’ll be enjoying my (public sector) pension & making the most of my freedom.

thebillcollector · 15/08/2024 17:35

Daft criminal records are keeping a lot of people out of work.

I know several people through work (they have volunteered and tried to get work experience) that are continually turned down due to historic misdemeanors.

Some of them are really daft but it's too late, their working life is over due to something they did in their teens. Once they have 5 years of no experience, no job on their record, they are on the scrap heap - they will never make it to interview stage.

Parker231 · 15/08/2024 17:39

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 15/08/2024 16:26

He's retired in his 50s and doing "other things"? It's a long training (and expensive to taxpayers!) to retire more than 10 years before everyone else. Especially now there's a shortage of doctors. Reeves might also have her eye on the doctors' pension and pay scheme which seems to have some perverse incentives against older doctors working.

DH didn’t train in the UK and only came to the uk for further training on a scholarship so minimal cost to the UK taxpayers. The UK have had more than their moneys worth from him - especially during Covid
Our future plans do not include any paid formal work.

FeFiFoFumretiree · 15/08/2024 17:39

If SP became means tested, all that would happen would be that (many, many) people would use any private pot they'd saved to fund the gap between stopping work and SPA and make sure to draw it all (or enough to make them eligible for SP) in that period. It would incentivise early retirement spending.

HelenWheels · 15/08/2024 17:40

usernamealreadytaken · 15/08/2024 13:10

I think there are several issues with people being economically inactive -

I think the government is specifically targeting those who are not financially self-supporting but are relying on benefits for their living income, because they feel working just doesn't pay. That's not necessarily a failure of wages, it's a failure of a support system which enables that to happen.

You're no longer paying the level of taxes you would be when working, and the economy is based on certain expectations - things like state pension are funded by workers continuing until NRD - if higher paid people retire early, the state pension pot for those who need it is reduced.

We have job openings which need to be filled, often by bringing in foreign workers which presents a higher cost to the state - many workers are in the lower-paid bracket, and will be supported by state subsidies. You're "supporting the services economy" might actually be you costing the state more, because we need more lower paid workers to serve the wealthy retirees...

We're losing vital experienced staff, and having to bring in more highly skilled foreign workers to backfill, which not only lessens the likelihood of training our own skilled workforce, but also drains often poorer countries of their own skilled workers. Nigeria, Africa’s most populous nation, is one of the countries deemed by the World Health Organization (WHO) to have a critical shortage of health workers, yet we still took nearly 14k Nigerian nurses in a year. Immigrant medical staff are also far more likely to be charged with medical incompetence than domestic staff.

we have had an arrangement to take nurses from overseas for years, i remember 20 years ago working in that area and we were expecting a large number from abroad, when i worked in london most of the wards in the 1980s were filled with nurses from the Philippines

otnot · 15/08/2024 17:42

Tryingtokeepgoing · 15/08/2024 15:21

I take issue with the 'not adding anything' to the economy, as I am still paying what I consider to be a lot of income tax every year. I then pay people to do stuff, by consuming services. Yes, I would do the same if I was working - but probably not a lot more, as it was by not spending everything I earned that I am able to do what I do now... I would have paid more income tax and NI, of course. But the government is now getting that from the person doing the job I would be doing, who is in turn also consuming goods and services. As a key plank of her 'plan' is growth, that inevitably means more consumption/output and more economic activity.

I accept that by exiting the workplace sooner, we potentially have a larger population to house...that is a good point. But total tax income is still higher than if I kept working, so overall the govenment is better off. And building houses is part of the growth 'strategy'

And to your last point, the internet reckons you need to earn a little under £2.5m in your lifetime to be a net contributor. I can't speak for everyone, but I imagine that most people leaving the work place in their 50s have earned at least £2.5m in their working life in order to be in the position where they have saved/invested enough to live on comfortably before and beyond being able to access their pension. And along the way, the government continues to get more income tax from me...putting it into even more of a net positive position :)

I wasn't trying to be rude, just explaining the reasoning from an economic perspective. Economics is pretty brutal - living in a world dictated purely by financial consideration would be a hellhole so we have to try to reach a balance, like not killing people off once they're no longer economically beneficial... An economically ideal human citizen would arrive in the country with an extensive education we haven't had to pay for. They would work in a revenue generating job for many decades in perfect health. They would then drop dead the day after they retire. They would save little, hate to travel and spend freely within this country. They would have some extremely healthy, intelligent children who they would pay to privately educate and ensure were hardworking and law-abiding. Any of us who don't fit this pattern are a bit of a nuisance really!

If you're not contributing a lot more in tax then when you worked, you're probably not as 'beneficial'; when you were working, you weren't just paying tax you were also providing a service, which is more what keeps the economy ticking than tax. I don't know offhand the current income required to become a 'net contributor' but last I looked it was 40-something-thousand. Let's says £45k, though it may be higher by now. This is the yearly figure if you're in work - so if you're 35 and start earning £45k, you'll be a net-contributor for this year, but you'll still be massively in deficit for all the 34 years you've taken more than you've given. Not many people get to the point where they ever pay back all that they cost before they got to the net-contributor level, but if they do, they still need to maintain that level forever. In order to retire without taking more than you've given, you'd have to have not only paid back all the money you've ever taken (equivalent to the tax on <£45k a year for their life so far, as things used to be cheaper) but also pay ahead for all that you will ever use, however old you get (equivalent to the tax on >£45k a year as prices will increase). At this point you'll basically break even. You'll obviously need to pay a great deal more if the country's going to get much financial benefit from your taxes. And if you modelled the impact of the necessary additional housing, infrastructure, resources etc for replacement workers you'd need to be contributing vastly more to make your tax more useful to the country than you working. Working doesn't just generate tax, it's the primary economic engine. Building houses won't in and of itself build any growth, it's the knock-on effect of having a large, secure, productive population that is claimed will help growth. This is very debatable though, many models show the damage to other areas like environmental will negate any positive impact.

I've not heard the £2.5m figure but it works out to slightly over £80k annually for 30 years, which would correspond roughly with the net contributor figure over a working lifetime (£45k for 50 years) - but as before, that figure would only hold true for the years you are earning it. For it to cover an entire lifetime it would have to be approximately £45,000 for 80 years, so £3.6m. That's of course an extremely rough estimate.

Again, not trying to attack you - I don't blame you at all for stopping work and enjoying your life. I don't think forcing people unhappily back into work is any sort of solution, I think we need to be trying to make it so people love to work and dread the idea of retiring! But that may be a long way off...

Nadeed · 15/08/2024 17:43

FeFiFoFumretiree · 15/08/2024 17:39

If SP became means tested, all that would happen would be that (many, many) people would use any private pot they'd saved to fund the gap between stopping work and SPA and make sure to draw it all (or enough to make them eligible for SP) in that period. It would incentivise early retirement spending.

I agree. Most people only have small pensions that are less or equal to a full state pension. There would be mass retirements.

pinkspeakers · 15/08/2024 17:45

Altruistically, I see my choice not to work as creating opportunities for progression for others...

This argument drives me nuts. Apart from a few closed sectors, there is not a fixed number of jobs in the country to be shared round. If you work (whether or not you are paid for it) you are increasing the amount of goods and services produced in the economy to be shared round.

I do think there is a broad brush moral contribution for healthy people to contribute to the world. But that can be through voluntary work, through caring responsibilities, housework (up to a point!) or even through creative activity (if you share it with others and are any good at it!) or just by being a generally useful friend/family member/neighbour. Lunching, going to the gym, shopping and leaving work for others to do is not altruistic in any way (not saying this is what you are doing!).

Nowordsformethanks · 15/08/2024 17:55

NoNameisGoodEnough · 15/08/2024 13:15

Bring in a universal basic income. That way, those who want to/can work more and earn more can but there is not the them vs us attitude to people who don't or can't work for whatever reason.

I agree. I believe UBI will very much bring a lot more people out to work, even those on sick benefits. For now, many are afraid they'll lose out if they so much as tried, so they'd rather stay where they are. UBI will be a good incentive for those who aren't working but want to work.

There will always be people who don't want to work even though they can, but I believe they're fewer in number than others in the above category.

BlackShuck3 · 15/08/2024 18:04

@pinkspeakers
How can you say going to the gym is not altruistic!?
What about setting a good example to others? Saving NHS money by staying healthy & fit?!

Livelovebehappy · 15/08/2024 18:07

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 15/08/2024 17:29

Refer them to the proper authorities😂

I waited 20 months to see a neurologist. I was referred by my lovely gp.

18 months to see the CF service.

It’s not the referrals. It’s the waiting times.

Which is why GPs can't be arsed to refer them. GP surgeries aren't fit for purpose. I had a blemish that suddenly appeared on my chest. Flakey, slightly raised, the kind that skin cancer medical professionals tell you to watch out for because could be skin cancer. After a month of it itching and not clearing up contacted GP surgery. Had a video appointment as receptionist made the decision I didn't need a face-to-face. GP suggested I whipped out a tape measure and spend the next three months measuring it to see if it gets bigger then get back to them. Came off the call. Wasn't happy with this fob off and called back. I said I wanted it looking at by a dermatoligist. Was told i should have asked on my first video call and they would have referred me to one. Isnt it their job to offer me that option or cant they be arsed with the paperwork??

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