Milk allergy death- should the book be thrown at the staff involved?

[mids2019]

....or if you are minimum wage staff member working in a stressed environment without English as a first language there should be leniency. Doctors are paid for life and death decisions but are Costa staff?

There is no evidence yet that the server completed tesining or failed to use any completed training. You are jumping to conclusions, and once again there is no person no matter how highly trained who could work 100% perfectly at all times, especially in a pressured and chaotic working environment like a coffee shop.

If they cannot guarantee products are allergen-free, even in the best of circumstances, wtf would you order there as someone with a severe allergy?
Even if the drink was prepared perfectly as ordered, she could have had a reaction. There just wouldn’t be anyone to point the finger at, which I get is what a grieving parent may want to do in order to absolve their own guilt.

So the mother acknowledged that there seemed to be confusion. Surely then it is on her to sort this confusion out. If my daughter had a severe allergy and I sense confusion in a place that is 95% milk drinks, I’m not going to hope for the best. I either say - let’s leave/get a packaged drink or I spell it out what I need explicitly several times and get them to confirm my order.

Exactly. Countless posters here seem unable/unwilling to grasp the possibility that the reaction was completely unexpected as what had previously been a mild reaction suddenly became extreme.

That's quite a normal course in court when someone is being questioned. It happens in many cases for many reasons, usually so people don't get prosecuted for something they are not reasonably liable for.

The "can't guarantee allergy free" line usually applies where certain ingredients are used on the premises such as flour, sesame, etc, where control is more difficult. It doesn't apply where staff either aren't trained or ignore their training. In food safety training, it is always recommended that if staff haven't understood, then to ask, and to apply full due diligence when preparing an allergen order.

You said the only way they could be found liable is if they intentionally tried to kill someone with an allergy?

Are you arguing Costa DO make the claim to guarantee allergen-free food and drink?

Very hard to even work out what actually happened let alone if/who is to blame.

It seems epi-pens don't always save the person even if administered. They don't have a 100% success rate. So the best thing to do is avoid.

If you take a moment to read what has been shown to you, you'll find that the disclaimer is written in large print at the very top of the allergen list, meaning that nothing they provide can be allergen free.
Listen, I have coeliac disease so I can't eat gluten and I know what a ball ache avoiding things is, but I don't expect everyone else to take responsibility for it, reasonable care yes but not absolute guarantee. It's not humanly possible. Either we have coffee shops with some risk or we don't have coffee shops at all. Most people would prefer to keep them.

Yes, in food safety training staff should be made aware of the threshold dose, so a customer may either grow into or out of an allergy and to treat all allergies in the 14 major ones as worse case scenario when preparing that food or drink.

Knowingly cavalier.

Do you think many mothers would actually bring their child into a Costa for a milky drink if they knew that they had a life threatening allergy, and that the epipens were at home? And then just to compound matters the parent of a child known to have a severe allergy wouldn't recognise the symptoms of anaphylaxis and would actually refuse an epipen when offered?

If my DC's epipens aren't with us, she doesn't eat. Fortunately she's never needed to use them, but if there was the slightest chance she needed adrenaline she'd be jabbed because that's what the hospital drill into us at every checkup.

It's vanishingly unlikely that this mother knew her child's allergy had become so serious because her actions don't make any sense if she did. Yes I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and stick up for her. Some awful things have been said about her on this thread, usually by people who know next to nothing about allergies.

It can be written across the Big Ben if it likes, as said, the difference in not guaranting allergy free due to those allergens being on the premises and someone's (whether the business or individual member of staffs) negligence are two different things. That applies to small coffee shops, large restaurants and manufacturing. The law still applies.

By a court eventually, before that conclusion I imagine there would be all sorts of ways the prosecution would try to blame the person in question though.
And for what? They won't have any money to sue for, being on minimum wage. Should we lock them up, for human error? For failing to hear the word 'soya' once? The company explicitly states it can't guarantee allergy free drinks.

It's horribly sad, but if my child had a life-threatening allergy like that I would not trust her life in the hands of minimum wage staff like that. I think the parent bears more responsibility than the staff member because the parent knew what could happen if there was a mistake and trusted the staff to be perfect whereas the staff would have had no idea that they could be killing someone if they weren't perfect.

Costa sell prepackaged factory-made drinks too. Much safer.

At this point there has been no evidence of negligence, and the capacity for an individual barista to show negligence in the context of making hot drinks has not been defined. They are people making coffee on minimum wage, ffs. The expectations of some people is actually astounding.

I’m not going to guess or speculate on why the mother chose Costa or her understanding of the allergy
None of us except Mum know the rationale for choices made that day
The conversation around the order is disputed by both parties

I agree with usual advice carry two epipens and prompt administration and second readministration of epipen if reaction is suspected

I’ve always been allergic to animal fur - pre-puberty this meant sniffles and itchy skin, so annoying but essentially no big deal.

I went to a friend’s house for a sleepover at about 16, who had a cat. I’d been for a sleepover there before. My allergic reaction suddenly became a full on asthma attack and I had to go to hospital. The dr said your allergic reaction can change as you get older. My reaction is still an asthma attack, only get it around animals (ie not from exercise or anything else) I wonder if her reaction to milk had got stronger but they didn’t know so her mum wasn’t massively worried. I feel so sorry for them all.

Everyone with an allergy aims to avoid, the idea is to never have to use the epipens. There are no guarantees and the pens can malfunction or the two most people carry may not be enough. If an epipen is used, it's a 999 off to hospital in an ambulance job, so they're not just popping a pill.

Everyone with an allergy has different risk assessments for what they'll eat in what setting. The meds are the final backstop for if something slips through.

Who the f would want to work as a barista on minimum wage knowing you could get charged with negligence, or even manslaughter as some here have suggested, because you (for example) used hot chocolate powder that is made from milk even after informing the customer of this, and customer said it was fine…

Why are they asking about a book what's in this book. Could this book have cleared up the confusion?

But do you think the people placing the blame squarely at the mother's door are being reasonable here? Because I don't.

allergic reactions do change over your life. I had my first severe reaction at this age when previously I had only vomited and had a rash. luckily I was at a doctors house when it happened so was treated quickly (also with hot chocolate - in this case I drank a sip of the one for my friend and not for me.)

I think there should be more education for allergy sufferers / parents on what symptoms needs an epi pen and what doesn’t so you know when to escalate even if allergy is mild - especially for children.

(all coffee shops wash the steam wand with the same cloth so anything but black coffee is out if your reaction is severe. That cloth is full of all the milks.)

Are you blaming the mother for her daughter's death?