My son can't stand his friend's younger sibling.....

[PrettyParrot]

...and this is a problem because they see each other a lot. Is there any way to handle this without causing irrevocable bad feeling between our families?

Backstory:
My DS1 is 13 and NT, DS2 is 12 and autistic. Both of them are friends with DF1, who is also 13. They have been friends since they were babies (DF's mum and I met at baby group) and all get along well. DF1 is very easy-going and placid, always polite, a joy to have around basically.

DF1 has a brother, who we shall call DF2. DF2 is 7 years younger than DF2 and is a nice child, but is also very high energy and tends to act up when he wants attention. This is not uncommon for little kids, but he is way more energetic than many. His parents (who we also get on with well) have previously expressed their own exhaustion in trying to keep up with him. I am fairly sure he has ADHD (other knowledgeable friends have supported this theory, having met him), which influences how I try to manage him when he comes over, and seems to be working ok so far. He is generally a nice kid apart from when he is on a wilful wind-up (which my own children are also guilty of sometimes).

The issue:
DS2 cannot STAND DF2. This has built over time and was somewhat inevitable given DS2's rigidity (which he can't help) and his awful temper (which he is strongly encouraged to at least try and rein in), plus DF2's tendency to latch onto anyone who gives him a reaction (classic little kid response, plus maybe a bit of sensation-seeking). DS2 is in no way an angel and needs to try harder, but he feels somewhat trapped by DF2 at times and is unable to work out how to respond without causing offence. We try to help him but it is undeniably delicate.

DF's mum and I now have very careful conversations where she politely lists the ways DS2 has behaved unpleasantly to DF2 (which DS2 definitely shouldn't be doing) or where I politely list the ways DF2 was challenging today (she does freely acknowledge that he can be hard work sometimes). A large part of the conflict is because DF2 gets upset that the big boys are leaving him out, and I must admit that a large part of my brain is saying"13yo boys and 6yos have NOTHING in common, why are you forcing them to interact so frequently" at such times (my childhood wasn't perfect but I didn't have to integrate my 7yo-younger sister into my social groups). I can't really say that without causing offence though.

Any advice on how to manage this between our families without falling out forever? My first idea is to stop DS2 from going to DF1's house at all, which I'm worried will come across as a bit confrontational, but he really struggles to handle interactions with DF2 and this seems like a way to reduce those....

Thanks for any help!

This.🙄

I agree with this, and I'm sorry your mother was that way, it's really good you are aware of it, that's the start of breaking a cycle.

They do have other friendships, but DS1 and DF1 genuinely get on well and hang out at school too. They'd just do it equally well in front of their computers in different houses :D friend and I encourage them to see each other in RL outside school, but it's hard to do so and not be at one house or the other.

I guess it is an issue time will solve, maybe. In the meantime, we're getting DS2 a lock on his door and he is under strict orders to retreat and lock it when they visit (he is delighted with this proposal).

But why do get togethers between two 13 year old boys - which I assume by now they are capable of arranging between themselves anyway without help from their mothers? - have anything to do with a six year old or even your younger child?

If the 13 year olds want to also invite the 12 year old that's their call, but to assume the 12 year old is along to play with the six year old makes no sense. They wouldn't want to all do the same things anyway. My 11 year old when he gets together with his friends mainly plays computer or console games (sad but true); my 7 year old and his friends play with Lego and toys.

But why on earth doesn't she invite another 6 year old to play? Does the boy not have any friends? He'd surely prefer to play with someone closer to his own age.

Sorry, you probably don't know the answer to that, but it is very strange! My kids are only 2 years apart and I don't expect them to play all together with each other's friends (though they occasionally do).

You need to manage the 6 year old if you want to look after him for your friend, it shouldn't involve your 12 year old locking himself in his bedroom .

Phrase it as DS1 inviting DF1 over to hang out. That way, not including the younger boy isn’t likely to offend her.

There is no way a 5yo can play well with 12 and 13 year olds without a great deal of tolerance on the older boys’ parts. They are worlds apart developmentally and socially.

I understand it’s convenient for your friend to do childcare swaps, but it’s not fair on any of the boys.

More like she wanted some childfree time. So what if she's upset, your son comes first. Doesn't the 6yr old have friends his own age?

I wouldn't recommend a lock for all kinds of reasons, safety being one. A wedge under the door works just as well.

Either invite DF over alone or DS1 goes and DS2 doesn't.
If other Mum questions this just point out that the dynamic of the 4 is no longer working.

This is nuts, why on earth would anyone expect 12&13 yos to want to hang out with a 7 year old? I get that this is not the only thing going on here, but I do think the other mother's judgement is really off

I think it’s fine to tell the mum that the dynamics of the four of them don’t work and are just too much to manage due to constant bickering and that now the older ones ( who are the actual friends) can make their own arrangements, it’s best to just let them do so.

I have done this before in a not dissimilar situation ( 2 dc are friends and the other 3 random siblings don’t gel, aren’t friends and are constantly bickering or being left out). It’s lovely when you do get family friends where the dc pair off perfectly but we only have two lots of friends like this really. The rest are compromises- some which are kind of fine for a day or so and some which I wouldn’t even consider inflicting on myself 🤣.

Thanks, this has made me feel a bit better about keeping DS2 at home! He will be a little sad about it as he does have fun there when DF2 is otherwise occupied, but agrees that this is the fairest compromise.

Your house your rules.

Invite DF2 over only when you have the bandwidth to actively manage all four children.
Explain to your friend that the age difference makes it unfair to always have DF2 along and activities aren't always appropriate. Where they are then he will be invited.
As a poster suggested up thread, frame it as an invitation from the eldest to the eldest.
Explain to DS2 that actions have consequences and that this is likely to be reciprocated so he won't always be able to visit DF1's home.

DF2 gets upset that the big boys are leaving him out, and I must admit that a large part of my brain is saying"13yo boys and 6yos have NOTHING in common, why are you forcing them to interact so frequently" at such times (my childhood wasn't perfect but I didn't have to integrate my 7yo-younger sister into my social groups). I can't really say that without causing offence though

It's a shame you can't say this without causing offence, because it's absolutely true. Your friend shouldn't be expecting three 12/13-year-olds to play with or entertain a bloody six-year-old. That's the same as the age gap between my older brother and me, and if I'd been badgering or wanting to play with him and his friends, my mum would have told me very clearly to leave them in peace. Those aren't compatible age groups on a social level - even if DF2 was the most delightful six-year-old in the world, a group of 13-year-olds are going to find him annoying because they can't do or talk about age-appropriate stuff with a six-year-old tagging along.

One of my friends had a little brother who was a very in-your-face, attention-seeking kid and he was a complete pain - he would force himself into her room and literally wouldn't let us have a conversation; he wanted to be our centre of attention the whole time and would shout and grab us if we stopped entertaining him. We ended up just never going to her house, which was rough on her because obviously she wanted us to come round and hang out sometimes, but she basically always had to come to us because her little brother just immediately sucked any enjoyment out of any event.

I've been in a similar situation DS 14y and DS 10y shared a room
DS10 had friend from school DF10y, DS14 & DF10 did not get on at all and would snipe at each other when together. Witnessed and intervened many times it was a 6 of one situation.
In the end I was sick of hearing from DF mum how DS14 had been mean to her child without any acknowledgement of any fault from her own son.
I ended the friendship following a different incident but I don't regret it one bit. Sometimes friendships are not worth the hassle they bring.

Your ds2 can just make his own decision about going or not based on how he feels about df2 being a pain. You just say ds1 would love to visit but ds2 wants to stay at home this time thanks.

Sounds like your son is the problem tbh.
I appreciate there's a big difference in interests between a 6yo and 12/13 yo's but on the other hand it's hard for a 6yo to understand why he's the one out of a group of four being left out and the older ones are old enough to understand and try to include him.
Your son is being an aggressive bully towards a much younger child and you and your friend are forcing them together because it's mutually convenient for childcare which is unfair on both of the boys.

I think you just have to say to your friend, 'DS2 is autistic and obviously heading into puberty as well and he's just not coping with a lot of things. He can't cope with being wound up by your 6 yo. I DO absolutely understand that the 6 yo is just being a typical child of that age, but we're going to take a step back to try and make sure we are meeting DS2s needs. It's not helping either of our families to have this amount of stress and tension, and obviously NT DC need different arrangements at times'.

Or something similar. I'd stop tiptoeing round and make it clear this can't continue.

I think you and the other mum are the problem. Expecting 13 year old teens to get along with a 6 years old as a part of the group is bonkers.

Let the teens behave like teens and stop the play dates. If you can’t do that just remember that she may have a child with ADHD but you also have a child with autism so try to teach your own child to be more tolerant to this younger kid in the way that so many people have been tolerant to his autistic traits. If you cannot stop your child being unpleasant, do not get the kids together. Understanding of ND traits should go both ways. Simples.

You are putting a lock on your child's bedroom door? Do you know how dangerous this is?

I must admit that a large part of my brain is saying"13yo boys and 6yos have NOTHING in common, why are you forcing them to interact so frequently"

I mean, you've said it yourself here.

It is not fair to expect 12 and 13 yr olds to have to entertain a 6 yr old.
The other parent should be managing this, but if she isn't, then a) don't invite him to yours and b) give the older ones a choice about if they want to go there.

You are not responsible for providing childcare for your friend, when you don't need childcare for your own dc. I mean, I like to hope I'd help out in an emergency, but it isn't your responsibility to entertain a 6 yr old when you have 12 and 13 yr olds.

Honestly, stop the families get togethers at each others’ houses before you fall out with your friends. Teens go out on their own or meet for age specific activities, you meet with the parents at restaurants with no children on tow.

If you want to do childcare for your friend occasionally (which would be a kind thing to do since yours don't really need it), leave your two and DF1 at home with your husband vaguely supervising (it's not like they're going to need amusing at that age) and take the DF2 out to a playground or local attraction suitable for a 6yo.

If you just want your DS1 and DF1 to be able to spend time together, limit the invite to DF1.

I wouldn't be sending your DS1 round to their house if you can't trust him to behave appropriately around a 6yo. Could end in tears all round.

He will mature and things will get easier.

And yes, if 6yo is round at your house, you need to be amusing him not the other children. So bake with him, draw with him, do the small kid stuff. But he shouldn't be around the bigger ones unsupervised for long periods even if they all got on well.