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The Guardian today on the safety of the Lucy Letby convictions

1000 replies

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/07/2024 08:40

This article was apparently months in the making but it was delayed by the reporting restrictions https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/jul/09/lucy-letby-evidence-experts-question

“A Guardian investigation has interviewed dozens of these experts and seen further evidence from emails and documents. Those raising concerns include several leading consultant neonatologists, some with current or recent leadership roles, and several senior neonatal nurses. Others are public health professionals, GPs, biochemists, a leading government microbiologist, and lawyers. Several of those still working in the NHS have asked to remain anonymous, fearing the impact if they are named.

These experts said they were acutely aware of the suffering of the families involved and did not want to reopen their trauma, but were so troubled they felt compelled to become involved”

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Whatisthereason · 20/08/2024 20:35

kkloo · 20/08/2024 11:49

Oh Dr Harkness, that's one of the doctors who had left child G behind a screen with no monitor switched on!!

The prosecution claimed in their opening statement that Letby turned it off. And it was only when a nurse who worked there heard the opening statement that she went to make a statement, saying that LL did not turn that monitor off, and that Dr Gibbs and Dr Harkness both apologised to her at the time for not switching it back on.

In court Dr Harkness denied that and said it was highly unlikely and he didn't remember the conversation.

Seems there’s more actual proof of these drs harming babies unintentionally than anyone else intentionally harming them

OtterMouse · 27/08/2024 21:17

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Firethehorse · 28/08/2024 01:31

I believe there’s also a new open letter from 7 senior nurses sent to the Government detailing the nursing professions disquiet with how these convictions have been obtained. Apparently nursing trusts threatened any nurse who dared to speak out on this case in any way with disciplinary action.
The result? Nurses leaving ‘in droves’ or living in fear of being scapegoated for the institutional failings of these trusts.
This is not justice; nurses and the British public are suffering for the way this has been allowed to unfold and the longer it goes on the more nurses will leave or refuse to work on problematic wards such as neonatal.
Of course Lucy and the babies parents are the ones left in perpetual anguish we should not forget them.
It’s starting to feel reminiscent of the too big to fail concept.

kkloo · 28/08/2024 02:08

Firethehorse · 28/08/2024 01:31

I believe there’s also a new open letter from 7 senior nurses sent to the Government detailing the nursing professions disquiet with how these convictions have been obtained. Apparently nursing trusts threatened any nurse who dared to speak out on this case in any way with disciplinary action.
The result? Nurses leaving ‘in droves’ or living in fear of being scapegoated for the institutional failings of these trusts.
This is not justice; nurses and the British public are suffering for the way this has been allowed to unfold and the longer it goes on the more nurses will leave or refuse to work on problematic wards such as neonatal.
Of course Lucy and the babies parents are the ones left in perpetual anguish we should not forget them.
It’s starting to feel reminiscent of the too big to fail concept.

Isn't that very ironic considering Dr Jayaram warns of another big scandal if whistleblowers aren't protected and has described a "culture of cover-up" he believes has major implications for all institutions, not just the health service, and said many employees are too scared to speak out for "fear of personal harm and retribution".
🙈🙉

https://news.sky.com/story/lucy-letby-hospital-consultant-warns-of-another-big-scandal-if-whistleblowers-arent-protected-13099580

"By not acting now we're almost guaranteeing another big NHS scandal... another revelation such as Shrewsbury and Telford, such as the Post Office."

You honestly couldn't make it up!

Lucy Letby hospital consultant warns of another big scandal if whistleblowers aren't protected

Dr Ravi Jayaram has described a "culture of cover-up" he believes has major implications for all institutions, not just the health service, and said many employees are too scared to speak out for "fear of personal harm and retribution".

https://news.sky.com/story/lucy-letby-hospital-consultant-warns-of-another-big-scandal-if-whistleblowers-arent-protected-13099580

DysonSphere · 28/08/2024 07:22

kkloo · 28/08/2024 02:08

Isn't that very ironic considering Dr Jayaram warns of another big scandal if whistleblowers aren't protected and has described a "culture of cover-up" he believes has major implications for all institutions, not just the health service, and said many employees are too scared to speak out for "fear of personal harm and retribution".
🙈🙉

https://news.sky.com/story/lucy-letby-hospital-consultant-warns-of-another-big-scandal-if-whistleblowers-arent-protected-13099580

"By not acting now we're almost guaranteeing another big NHS scandal... another revelation such as Shrewsbury and Telford, such as the Post Office."

You honestly couldn't make it up!

He's diabolical.

DysonSphere · 28/08/2024 08:11

Firethehorse · 28/08/2024 01:31

I believe there’s also a new open letter from 7 senior nurses sent to the Government detailing the nursing professions disquiet with how these convictions have been obtained. Apparently nursing trusts threatened any nurse who dared to speak out on this case in any way with disciplinary action.
The result? Nurses leaving ‘in droves’ or living in fear of being scapegoated for the institutional failings of these trusts.
This is not justice; nurses and the British public are suffering for the way this has been allowed to unfold and the longer it goes on the more nurses will leave or refuse to work on problematic wards such as neonatal.
Of course Lucy and the babies parents are the ones left in perpetual anguish we should not forget them.
It’s starting to feel reminiscent of the too big to fail concept.

Hate to be a stickler, but is there actual evidence of these 'nurses leaving in droves' over this matter?

Afterall there is a culture of whistle coverup in the NHS as there is in any large public institution, so Jayaram thinks he's being clever stating the obvious because he needs no evidence to assert that, but I am interested in knowing if the working environment and culture of senior doctors passing the buck to nurses has in fact made nurses uneasy about being scapegoated.

For one thing, applied nursing practice in hospitals can be different to that of what doctors do, yet no senior nurses were provided as expert witnesses in the trial, to go over some of those points where it was alleged Lucy was derelict in her care such as standing over the baby 'doing nothing'. Was she in fact doing something that simply looked like nothing to a Doctor? It would have been good to have a picture of how far Lucy's practice deviated from the standard practice of neonatal nursing at key points where she was being accused of being deliberately neglectful/remiss/ making mistakes. Why did the NMC not request, ask about, challenge this not being done?

Do nurses need more protection? My understanding is that doctors can be somewhat caught up in their seniority and nurses are often first in the firing line for mistakes. Nursing is unfairly seen as an inferior profession to being a GP or doctor. In regards to this trial the NMC seems to have done no separate review, or asked any questions about the evidence and not offered or provided an expert neonatal nurse to the inquiry. Yet the prosecution had doctors essentially upholding the testimony of doctors. Some of those doctors are still coming out with authoritative seeming statements, without any pushback, that further serves to support this dysfunctional notion about doctor superiority over nursing. Does the NMC support this dysfunctional culture wherein nurses can be more easily scapegoated? To a layperson it appears they do.

The NMC says their mission is to protect the public, but don't they also have a duty to uphold the profession? If professional nursing practice is possibly being misunderstood and mischaracterised, especially publicly, isn't it their duty to dispell any such misunderstandings?

Where do nursing trusts come in? Who protects nurses in trial situations?

I confess I don't understand how any of this works, just speculating. But I do think that sitting quietly and allowing this nurse to be thrown under the bus like this with little challenge, and not asking questions of the evidence, or the testimony of the expert witnesses serves to further imprint in the minds of the general public the notion that nurses should be challenged, are more fallible, less reliable, less knowledgeable, less trustworthy and less well trained than doctors. And the nursing trusts have aided that notion to the detriment of their own profession by sitting quietly and asking no questions during the most high profile trial of a nurse in possibly history.

If I were a nurse (especially, sadly a female and/or a pretty one) starting my nursing career with a particularly vulnerable patient cohort, I think I'd be be feeling concerned about whether I'd be seen as competent and worried about challenging authority or bad practice by seniors. Is Jayaram concerned about those voices being stifled? A stifling he has directly contributed to with his assertions about Letby's alleged malpractice 'walking into a room and seeing her doing nothing?' but himself doing nothing about that is by-the-by.

OtterMouse · 28/08/2024 09:00

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Whatisthereason · 28/08/2024 09:25

DysonSphere · 28/08/2024 07:22

He's diabolical.

He’s clever as well….

Whatisthereason · 28/08/2024 09:27

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Ive said before when my dc were in nicu it was a regular occurrence (daily) for monitors alarming to be silenced and a nurse would often spend a few seconds up to a minute observing a baby - then intervene if needed , which may only have been adjusting nasal prongs/ touching the baby or something else but it was all the babies and they told me sometimes they wait as the babies right themselves

MistressoftheDarkSide · 28/08/2024 10:01

The whole "standing there doing nothing" while a baby is allegedly "crashing" is such a can of worms and absolutely should have been dissected for the jury in terms of explaining clinical practise. The adversarial and somewhat theatrical nature of courts absolutely relies on the emotional knee jerk to get the jury on the prosecutions side. (And vice versa I suppose) .

All the jury would have absorbed, most likely, is that a baby was in distress ergo she didn't care because she did nothing. Job done. She's evil personified.

Likewise the bruised liver issue, which still confuses me as a neonates liver is tiny, it's close to where CPR is done, and how the feck would she have managed to accomplish that internally without doing other damage? With the force of impact from falling off a trampoline? Of course expressing too much interest in the mechanics is apparently ghoulish and doctors would never say these things if they weren't demonstrably true, would they? Well, doctors are only human and ego's respond in strange ways when offered the kudos of being the brave warriors in the fight against child abuse, which is of course the very worthiest cause, I don't deny.

Unfortunately, in the adversarial court setting the truth can be the first casualty, and the cost of that is often sadly incalculable.

Lougle · 28/08/2024 10:16

I think it's really difficult in these cases. I used to work in a NICU. I wouldn't believe swipe card data. The amount of times people forget their swipe, borrow someone else's, etc.

I believe in the justice system. I do wonder, though, if LL would have been found guilty beyond reasonable doubt, had there been a separate jury for each baby, with a separate trial, with no knowledge that there were other trials pending. I'm suspecting not. I know the jury are told to consider each case separately, but they're humans.

I definitely think the latest retrial couldn't possibly be fair. I can't see how the jury could have been remotely impartial in it.

DysonSphere · 28/08/2024 10:23

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Yes, there was, good point!

Have NMC/nursing trusts also looked at the evidence? And have they reached this conclusion for themselves? They must know whether that supposed stand out example of Lucy's supposed deliberate murder attempt could in fact just have been a feature of standard neonatal nursing. Yet have said nothing.

Why was it deemed fine to exclude any expert witnesses from a neonatal nursing background to either avail a deeper, more rounded and comprehensive insight of neonatal nursing to the jurors? Or to defend Lucy's practice? Why are they comfortable with this and some nurses on the ground comfortable with this?

(Perhaps a flawed analogy, but I can't imagine a scenario where a pilot is on trial for a plane crash or something and no other professional pilots are called to make evaluations on what standard practice is or might be in a similar scenario, but only plane engineers/flight despatchers/flight attendants, etc.)

Why have those nursing bodies been happy to contribute to the undermining of the professionalism of nursing practice in Medicine and the public realm by effectively distancing themselves, allowing ongoing misleading assumptions about nursing procedure to proliferate and putting pressure on senior nurses trying to raise concerns to shut up?

They undermine their profession quite seriously. Nursing becomes the fall guy.

DysonSphere · 28/08/2024 10:31

Whatisthereason · 28/08/2024 09:25

He’s clever as well….

And more besides...

DysonSphere · 28/08/2024 10:33

MistressoftheDarkSide · 28/08/2024 10:01

The whole "standing there doing nothing" while a baby is allegedly "crashing" is such a can of worms and absolutely should have been dissected for the jury in terms of explaining clinical practise. The adversarial and somewhat theatrical nature of courts absolutely relies on the emotional knee jerk to get the jury on the prosecutions side. (And vice versa I suppose) .

All the jury would have absorbed, most likely, is that a baby was in distress ergo she didn't care because she did nothing. Job done. She's evil personified.

Likewise the bruised liver issue, which still confuses me as a neonates liver is tiny, it's close to where CPR is done, and how the feck would she have managed to accomplish that internally without doing other damage? With the force of impact from falling off a trampoline? Of course expressing too much interest in the mechanics is apparently ghoulish and doctors would never say these things if they weren't demonstrably true, would they? Well, doctors are only human and ego's respond in strange ways when offered the kudos of being the brave warriors in the fight against child abuse, which is of course the very worthiest cause, I don't deny.

Unfortunately, in the adversarial court setting the truth can be the first casualty, and the cost of that is often sadly incalculable.

That's a very good point you make about the bruised liver only being contained to that site. Amazing feat actually.

DysonSphere · 28/08/2024 10:34

It's an amazing feat! Forgive my bad grammar. Rubbish sleep.

Firethehorse · 28/08/2024 11:02

It sounds as though nurses and their bodies haven’t been happy but have been either strong armed/threatened/silenced by their Trusts or not been heard publicly due to the Judge’s orders, hence why the newspaper reports weren’t allowed to be printed either. The Trusts would clearly prefer the issue to be a rogue nurse than themselves held accountable for multiple failures.
I too would like the numbers behind ‘leaving in droves’ - especially those moving out of neonatal specifically but that’s a really separate issue to this trial itself.
It’s telling this was also the first case Mike Lynch was preparing to work on after being found not guilty himself.

MontyVerdi · 28/08/2024 11:09

serialcatbuyer · 09/07/2024 11:08

Is that what it says ? Not just "I killed them ?"

I don't think it says 'They went'

Whatisthereason · 28/08/2024 11:21

DysonSphere · 28/08/2024 10:33

That's a very good point you make about the bruised liver only being contained to that site. Amazing feat actually.

And with no outward sign of any injury apparently

Lougle · 28/08/2024 11:27

I looked after a baby who was doing really well. I fed the baby, and minutes later they were grey and looking very poorly. They had an illness which had been brewing and only became apparent once they were fed (deliberately vague). My first question was "Did I break the baby??" I knew, logically, that I had done everything according to procedure, but when you're looking at a very sick patient who was not sick before you interacted with them, it's natural to blame yourself.

DysonSphere · 28/08/2024 11:56

Whatisthereason · 28/08/2024 11:21

And with no outward sign of any injury apparently

How's that even possible?

Whatisthereason · 28/08/2024 12:20

DysonSphere · 28/08/2024 11:56

How's that even possible?

That’s exactly what confuses me so much I just don’t understand how that could be the case

Kittybythelighthouse · 28/08/2024 14:15

DysonSphere · 28/08/2024 10:33

That's a very good point you make about the bruised liver only being contained to that site. Amazing feat actually.

Not just that, but no bruising of the skin or external marks either.

OP posts:
DysonSphere · 28/08/2024 16:03

Kittybythelighthouse · 28/08/2024 14:15

Not just that, but no bruising of the skin or external marks either.

Ok is it even possible that you could abuse a child with such force that it creates internal bruising but leaves no traces of bruising on the skin on the outside?

That would seem to make no sense at all

MistressoftheDarkSide · 28/08/2024 16:21

DysonSphere · 28/08/2024 16:03

Ok is it even possible that you could abuse a child with such force that it creates internal bruising but leaves no traces of bruising on the skin on the outside?

That would seem to make no sense at all

Look up metaphyseal fractures for similar. Eye opening to be sure.

mids2019 · 28/08/2024 22:24

Ian Huntley was given theoretically a lighter sentence than Letby (min 40 years) so this shows how serious a judgment this was. With the mounting doubts about the trial process especially the presentation of statistical evidence this is more and more looking like a miscarriage of justice ona monumental scale.
The families of the babies will be so confused and suffering, the jurors may be sickened reading the letters coming in from senior professionals and the trust realise they can't avoid scrutiny with the 'killet nurse' excuse. Shit show.

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