The Guardian today on the safety of the Lucy Letby convictions

[Kittybythelighthouse]

This article was apparently months in the making but it was delayed by the reporting restrictions https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/jul/09/lucy-letby-evidence-experts-question

“A Guardian investigation has interviewed dozens of these experts and seen further evidence from emails and documents. Those raising concerns include several leading consultant neonatologists, some with current or recent leadership roles, and several senior neonatal nurses. Others are public health professionals, GPs, biochemists, a leading government microbiologist, and lawyers. Several of those still working in the NHS have asked to remain anonymous, fearing the impact if they are named.

These experts said they were acutely aware of the suffering of the families involved and did not want to reopen their trauma, but were so troubled they felt compelled to become involved”

The conclusion of the expert panel, who have seen the evidence and are very highly qualified and experienced, is that there were no murders and the babies died from substandard medical care.
The absolute tragedy of their loss and the horror of what the parents are going through is not going to be ameliorated one jot by locking up an innocent woman. On the contrary, the whole shameful affair will have multiplied their suffering.
What will best serve the parents and give them a chance to find closure and peace after this awful drawn out mess is for a retrial to take place as soon as possible.
A proper open and honest investigation into what happened to the babies is also the best way to help prevent any other parents having to go through what they have.

The problem is that if Letby is allowed to be a scapegoat for piss poor management and care, then the babies and their families are not getting justice, and more babies are likely to be harmed.

If Letby is not guilty, those accountable will get away with this scot free and with nice fat pensions. It's beyond me how anyone wants so many people responsible to be allowed to retire comfortably on taxpayers money.

The whole thing was mismanaged from the very start and no one has been held accountable. Even if she is guilty this is true - yet her 'guilt' has been allowed to deflect from the failure of managers and the NHS system. As soon as doctors raised concerns about Letby she should have been removed from frontline care, but they didn't do that because I suspect they knew they were understaffed (and I suspect knew really it was unsafe - at the same time they had raw sewage coming up the pipes into the NICU - again, the unit should have been shut down surely?). So they did nothing to remove a potential risk. This action, which should have happened, would have also protected Letby from false allegations if they were false.

Honestly the NHS seems to be run by people who simply don't care about human beings getting rich whilst frontline staff are left with insufficient resources to do the job. They seem to thrive on witch hunts of the lowest rung of the ladder (nurses - several cases at the moment) as a way to deflect from what is essentially failure of care and corruption.

Even if Letby is guilty, she should not have been allowed to be in the position she could have done this as soon as a single concern was raised. And no-one has been held accountable for that.

No one had posted on this thread since September, you're the one who has now started giving this more air....sounds more like you're just looking to start an argument where you get to position yourself as the righteous one.....

Obviously everyone is aware that the families are going through hell, there is no concrete proof that these babies have been murdered so there are concerns that justice has not in fact been done. Also there are families who didn't get any answers at all, even if they were the wrong ones.

So no one has ever been wrongly convicted?

if Letby is not guilty, and it’s systemic failures in care and circumstantial evidence that has put found her guilty, you’re ok with that? You’re happy for that substandard care to continue, babies lives to be risked daily, and more parents continue to face this agony just so you can see someone- anyone- in prison for those deaths? You’re happy as long as justice is seen to be done and babies can continue to receive crappy care with no attempt to acknowledge that the care was at the least contributory to the deaths if not completely so.

If that word had been functioning as it should, those deaths would have been picked up on and measures put in place much earlier to stop them.

the families deserve the truth. If people need to give this “air” to get to that truth then so be it, and shame on you for not wanting to ask uncomfortable questions just so you can see “justice” done. Because it isn’t justice if the verdict isn’t the correct one.

LL was tried.

You sound like you're under the influence.

'MD' (Phil Hammond) has been documenting concerns in Private Eye for months but has stopped while awaiting the response from the Criminal Cases Review Commission.
I am a slightly dubious about the opinions of experts who have only seen the notes and documented evidence and were not present in the hospital at the time when this was happening.
The C4 documentary was interesting. But we have to wait and see the CCRC says.

Oh come on! Her diary entries were enough evidence to say that she is guilty - end of! She still needs to stay locked up. If anyone else is involved this will need to investigated but this should have all been picked up at the time.
Have you seen any information about how the parents feel about all this re-review when they thought justice was done?

There's a reason that criminal laws aren’t written or prosecutions or case reviews conducted by the relatives of the victims of a crime/negligence/ malpractice. You would need to have a heart of stone not to feel for those babies’ parents, but their anguish is not a reason to let an unsafe conviction stand.

I don't think anyone has ever said 'end of' and something actually been the end of.

Omg thank you for bringing that to my attention - lol I only signed up yesterday (I've attached email proof to this post) Did not notice the date on this thread! So I can see why you thought I was starting an argument - and yes I have now indirectly given this air - 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️
again, I've attached a picture with the email arriving yesterday from mums net to say thanks for signing up so you know I am not lying! Apologies I will now observe The historical record of a post before I shoot first and ask questions later! 🙄🥴

nonetheless the evidence states that she is definitely guilty that she was involved in the murder of those babies - is that not true? She is not innocent by any means

It's usually the start of something!

The prosecution successfully persuaded the jury that she was guilty, and that's as much as can be stated as fact.

There are issues with what was presented as evidence, and whether she's guilty or not, these need to be dealt with otherwise this will never have a conclusion.

It's ok, I'm not going to accuse you of lying!

The thing is though it's quietened down because nothing has really been happening in the news, but discourse will start up again if the CRCC announce a decision or if there are any new developments, there will also be the Thirlwall inquiry and the developments in the other investigations. If the CRCC application fails I wouldn't be surprised if more experts start speaking out.

You can't stop people speaking about it, because people will talk about any major story. Everyone is aware that the families are going through hell, but that does not change the fact that as it stands many people are simply not convinced by the verdict and think the evidence was severely lacking, and if this is a miscarriage of justice then this needs to be corrected. Trying to shame people won't work and no one is doing anything they should be ashamed of. I think it's important to remember that for those who think this may have been a miscarriage of justice that their hearts are in the right place.

The verdict says that she is guilty.

The evidence definitely does not prove it. There isn't even any concrete evidence which proves that the babies were murdered.
If LL does end up being released eventually I can guarantee they won't go out looking for the 'real murderer', they will decide that no murders actually took place.

Those diary entries that included 'I'm innocent' and 'i haven't done anything wrong'.

You can't pick and choose which ones you think are evidence of guilt and leave out the others.

Yes, I think this very odd.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/lucy-letby-hadwritten-notes-conviction-092658288.html

It's also a very odd experience to know you're a suspect in killing babies, that can do odd stuff to the mind.

I’m sure you’re right about that. But, she was arrested in 2018, the note’s apparently dated back to her 2016 diary. Pretty damming, and looking like some form of mental illness, perhaps. For all we know, the defence lawyers might be keen to keep spinning suspicion of her innocence so they can keep coining it in, rather than LL actually being innocent - just saying’!

uk.news.yahoo.com/lucy-letby-hadwritten-notes-conviction-092658288.html

It's not dated back to the 2016 diary. The post its were just inside the diary.

Almost all evidence is circumstantial, including DNA. That doesn't make it invalid.

Of course, but the circumstantial evidence in this case was weak. And normally in cases there is concrete proof that a crime had actually been committed, in which case the circumstantial evidence shows that it was this person who did it, in this case there is no concrete evidence of murder or intentional harm.

Was there a 2017 diary? Miscarriage of justice can occur, certainly, and if the conviction is unsafe it should be overturned.

But it’s a shame the defence didn’t raise more suspicion over the post it note evidence earlier if it was suspect evidence, since it was presented several times. We will have to see what happens.