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The Guardian today on the safety of the Lucy Letby convictions

1000 replies

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/07/2024 08:40

This article was apparently months in the making but it was delayed by the reporting restrictions https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/jul/09/lucy-letby-evidence-experts-question

“A Guardian investigation has interviewed dozens of these experts and seen further evidence from emails and documents. Those raising concerns include several leading consultant neonatologists, some with current or recent leadership roles, and several senior neonatal nurses. Others are public health professionals, GPs, biochemists, a leading government microbiologist, and lawyers. Several of those still working in the NHS have asked to remain anonymous, fearing the impact if they are named.

These experts said they were acutely aware of the suffering of the families involved and did not want to reopen their trauma, but were so troubled they felt compelled to become involved”

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Kittybythelighthouse · 16/07/2024 21:38

MistressoftheDarkSide · 16/07/2024 17:03

Just been doing a quick Google on the subject and the arguments are very much that holding onto the handover sheets in such a quantity is a huge no no from a data protection perspective at the very least, then it all escalates into "trophies".

I really don't know what to make of this as evidence as such tbh. Logic dictates that if she knew she was under suspicion and was interviewed by police what 3 ? times at least, holding onto such damning evidence doesn't really fit with her characterisation of being calculating. Either there is genuinely nothing of note about them in themselves, so why should she even think about them or she's a bit thick or what? We're back to pretty much anything being interpreted as sinister in the light of her charges and subsequent convictions.

I keep seeing references to 4000 cases being investigated right back to the beginning of her nursing career and honestly it really doesn't bear thinking about if she is guilty nor if she is innocent. It's making me feel really nauseous to be honest.

It’s already far fetched that a serial killer nurse managed to kill quite a few babies in a cramped and busy neonatal unit without any of her fellow nurses ever seeing anything odd. If we extend that to 4000 potential murders without a single nurse saying “I felt she was odd” or “something was off with her” let alone a single eyewitness account (I mean a real one, not RJ’s thrice changed story that contradicts JW’s) it is blatantly in the territory of wild fantasy IMO.

It already makes me uneasy that Dewi Evans and Ravi Jarayam supported Roy Meadows (instrumental in convicting Sally Clark and Angela Cannings etc) and his crackpot Sherlock Holmes idea that - “one sudden infant death is a tragedy, twice is suspicious, three times is murder”. Roy Meadows was literally in the Sherlock Holmes society and was quoted as saying he feels that himself and Holmes have similar detection styles. It’s a pity he didn’t realise that when Sir Arthur Conan Doyle tried to utilise Holmes detective style it led him to believe there were fairies at the bottom of the garden. It would be funny if he hadn’t literally destroyed those women’s lives and families based solely on his own heroic narrative. He should have got prison, never mind struck off IYAM.

Going on such a mad flight of fancy here is really quite ridiculous. Apparently they all see evil women everywhere, murdering children constantly, without raising a single suspicion outside their own. Too many Grimm fairy tales and Boy’s Adventure books if you ask me.

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Kittybythelighthouse · 16/07/2024 21:46

MistressoftheDarkSide · 16/07/2024 20:52

The more even cursory googling I do using terms from the medical evidence the more I turn up suggesting that pretty much all the episodes that Lucy Letby is accused of nefarious involvement in, could have a natural explanation. I'm not talking about anything with a reference to the case, I'm talking journals and papers in medical publications from years prioe or since.

The prosecutions claim is that these babies were otherwise stable and doing well, but their histories were replete with crises. Prematurity, needing ventilation, possible infections etc. All in an environment where while it is standard to avoid unnecessary procedures by definition they needed far more intervention than a full term healthy baby, and every intervention elevates risk factors.

Simple things like getting an idea of size and scale of both premature babies and the equipment and procedures likely going on in the unit is very enlightening.

I recently re-read the Sky news article regarding the baby with the "unexplained" bleeding from the court reporting. Contradictory doesn't begin to cover it.

That incident with the “unexplained bleeding” - I think you’re talking about Child E? That’s one of the babies that Dr Harkness was involved with. He insists he did not make any serious mistakes in waiting for so long to give a transfusion to the baby. This is the doctor who already directly caused the death of one baby and the permanent disability of another by making clinical mistakes. But no. He made no mistakes this time. Easier to blame it all on Letby at that stage I suppose.

That particular incident is so egregious that it is illuminating. It’s often been said that these babies don’t collapse without warning. However, there are multiple deaths where it looks like nurses were raising warnings but the doctors either were unavailable or missed the warning signs (like this one). You cannot claim a collapse came without warning if the warnings were there but just not attended to. A doctor not seeing a problem on the horizon doesn’t mean there isn’t one, especially when a nurse has been raising the alarm for a while and has made “doctor not available” notes before the eventual collapse.

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MistressoftheDarkSide · 16/07/2024 22:01

I have to say I can't disagree with anything you say. And I can say hand on heart that I've tried to approach this as impartially as I can, being aware of possible bias due to my own experiences.

The argument that the convictions are safe based on the big picture depends on the medical evidence proving murder in the first instance and it just doesn't from what I've found online and what was insisted on in court, which are at odds. That means that the convictions were entirely based on circumstantial evidence, which is not unheard of of course, but here that evidence is also very shaky in my opinion.

My opinion is of course coloured somewhat by my own experience - I have been lied to by medical professionals and been on the receiving end of "the balance of probabilities" . It happens for a multitude of reasons.

Maybe I will write a book one day.

These convictions are patently unsafe.

lawnseed · 16/07/2024 22:33

The thing that's bothering me is that if she is innocent, she still has no chance of a retrial or the convictions being quashed. The CPS has invested so much time and effort into convicting her that, to admit it was all a mistake, would be a catastrophic blow to the criminal justice system and its credibility shot to pieces. They're never going to allow this to happen are they?

MistressoftheDarkSide · 16/07/2024 22:44

I think that's about the long and short of it sadly. Something has gone very wrong somewhere, and one has to wonder whether that's by accident or design. But that makes us conspiracy theorists doesn't it? Oh ye God's and little fishes.... and they wonder why people have no respect for the state and plenty of fear of it. That fear never leaves you by the way. Ever.

OtterMouse · 16/07/2024 23:21

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Kittybythelighthouse · 16/07/2024 23:52

lawnseed · 16/07/2024 22:33

The thing that's bothering me is that if she is innocent, she still has no chance of a retrial or the convictions being quashed. The CPS has invested so much time and effort into convicting her that, to admit it was all a mistake, would be a catastrophic blow to the criminal justice system and its credibility shot to pieces. They're never going to allow this to happen are they?

The CPS, police, and judiciary, were in a much worse position with the Birmingham 6, given that collusion between police and the justice system was actually proved to be at the core of that case. They were exonerated eventually nonetheless. The CCRC has a motivation to get it right, and to work as quickly as they can, given the bad press they’ve got in recent years. They need a good news story. I thought this was interesting from former Comissioner of the CCRC (David James Smith) in the Independent last week.

“The CCRC is currently under scrutiny because of its role in the prolonged injustice faced by Andrew Malkinson (who spent 17 years in prison for a rape he did not commit). Two reviews of the CCRC's role in the Malkinson case are imminent.
Those circumstances may focus their mind on doing their best work, and the Commission has dealt with complex medical cases in the past. It can instruct experts, review evidence, and, perhaps importantly, invite trial counsel to explain their tactics and decision-making – a necessity for any future chance of appeal. No one should be under any illusion that this is a quick process – it could take a year, or years.”

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Kittybythelighthouse · 16/07/2024 23:54

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I’m sorry to hear you’ve had it rough 🩵 Women are not treated nearly as well as they should be in medical contexts. If you haven’t read Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez, give it a read. It’ll make you rage though!

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OtterMouse · 17/07/2024 00:19

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Kittybythelighthouse · 17/07/2024 00:30

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Fair!

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Billyballyboo · 17/07/2024 07:22

lawnseed · 16/07/2024 22:33

The thing that's bothering me is that if she is innocent, she still has no chance of a retrial or the convictions being quashed. The CPS has invested so much time and effort into convicting her that, to admit it was all a mistake, would be a catastrophic blow to the criminal justice system and its credibility shot to pieces. They're never going to allow this to happen are they?

This is exactly what has happened with other cases unfortunately. There is no case against Jeremy Bamber and the convictions are clearly unsafe yet nearly 40 years later he's still in jail. For them to admit a mistake would be catastrophic for them. I'm afraid Letby might end up being in the same camp.

Kittybythelighthouse · 17/07/2024 07:48

Billyballyboo · 17/07/2024 07:22

This is exactly what has happened with other cases unfortunately. There is no case against Jeremy Bamber and the convictions are clearly unsafe yet nearly 40 years later he's still in jail. For them to admit a mistake would be catastrophic for them. I'm afraid Letby might end up being in the same camp.

It’s possible for sure, but there is far more public interest in the problems with this case. Most people are only vaguely familiar with Bamber’s case and not in a way that is helpful to him. What I mean is, when people think of Jeremy Bamber they think of the characterisation of him at the time - a wannabe rich kid poser doing farm work in Adam Ant garb. The evidence is, arguably, less egregiously bad and hasn’t been torn asunder by a slew of experts in the same high profile way. If I recall correctly that case might also need to establish planting of evidence? (The gun silencer that was found in a cupboard quite far along in the investigation).

There hasn’t been anywhere near the same outpouring of critical experts supporting innocence and so not nearly as much of a high profile with the public calling for a review of evidence. As always it’ll come down to how much the public care and therefore how much pressure is created and maintained. It’s a shame, but that’s often how these things go in real life.

Given that the justice system seems to have excluding important evidence from actual experts for the sake of procedure baked into it (as per the appeal judgement), I no longer doubt that many people are languishing in prison unfairly. I’m far from the only one whose faith in the judicial system has been badly undermined by this case and other recent high profile Miscarriages of Justice (post office scandal and Andrew Malkinson). That is an image problem for the judicial system. A handful of sceptics is one thing. A popular interest in this case (as a MoJ) is another.

In my opinion the justice system needs an overhaul. Will that happen? Not likely, and certainly not quickly. But is there a chance that Letby will have her case reviewed? I think with the amount of public interest this case is generating, as a possible Miscarriage of Justice, yes. It just might. Particularly given the above recent high profile exonerations.

According to the below linked article by Bill Robertson (who advised on Bamber’s recent CCRC application) it might take a (virtually unprecedented) political intervention to do it.

“The Court of Appeal, in suppressing evidence and issuing decrees to limit public access to information, such as banning articles published abroad, is still trying to act as if the internet has not been invented and that word of the dissenting scientists will never come to light. The reality is that within a year or two the majority of those interested in the Lucy Letby case will have seen sufficient scientific refutation of Evans’ testimony to accept that in layman’s terms a miscarriage of justice has occurred. Someone, (would the CCRC dare?), needs to tell the CoA that they should enter the 21st century and agree to hear from scientists better qualified than Evans as to what killed the babies”

empowerinnocent.wixsite.com/ccrcwatch/post/lucy-letby-and-her-quest-for-justice-why-it-is-unlikely-that-the-ccrc-would-refer-lucy-letby-s-conv

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ThePure · 17/07/2024 10:01

ccrc.gov.uk/news/commission-refers-the-murder-and-attempted-murder-convictions-of-colin-norris-to-the-court-of-appeal/#:~:text=As%20a%20result%20of%20the,the%20four%20patients%20is%20unsafe.

Poor Colin Norris has been in prison since 2008 (and that was after 6 years under suspicion before the case came to trial) and only now is even the CCRC finally admitting that his conviction is patently unsafe. There was no direct evidence at all and I seriously cannot understand how a number of very elderly ladies dying in a hospital is an unusual matter. Medical experts insisted that people who aren't diabetic don't die of hypoglycaemia but now it is very well known that if they are frail and elderly and ill they certainly do. They made the classic mistake of suspecting him and then going looking for hypoglycaemic deaths where he had been on duty with no regard to the rate of such deaths where he had not been. His colleagues seemed to dislike him because he was a gay man. The lead detective had just come off the Shipman case. Sixteen years and counting in prison for a crime that not only did he not commit but that did not actually exist.

If he is acquitted then maybe that will draw attention to similar cases.

Kittybythelighthouse · 17/07/2024 10:16

ThePure · 17/07/2024 10:01

ccrc.gov.uk/news/commission-refers-the-murder-and-attempted-murder-convictions-of-colin-norris-to-the-court-of-appeal/#:~:text=As%20a%20result%20of%20the,the%20four%20patients%20is%20unsafe.

Poor Colin Norris has been in prison since 2008 (and that was after 6 years under suspicion before the case came to trial) and only now is even the CCRC finally admitting that his conviction is patently unsafe. There was no direct evidence at all and I seriously cannot understand how a number of very elderly ladies dying in a hospital is an unusual matter. Medical experts insisted that people who aren't diabetic don't die of hypoglycaemia but now it is very well known that if they are frail and elderly and ill they certainly do. They made the classic mistake of suspecting him and then going looking for hypoglycaemic deaths where he had been on duty with no regard to the rate of such deaths where he had not been. His colleagues seemed to dislike him because he was a gay man. The lead detective had just come off the Shipman case. Sixteen years and counting in prison for a crime that not only did he not commit but that did not actually exist.

If he is acquitted then maybe that will draw attention to similar cases.

I don’t think I’d even know about Colin Norris if it wasn’t for the fact that it gets mentioned in relation to this case a lot. I’ll have to look into it further. I find it maddening that people like Ray Meadows or (in this case) Dewi Evans can put innocent people away for life, destroy multiple families, and face no real repercussions. Meadows was stricken off, but he literally should have got prison for what he did to Sally Clark and the other women whose lives were ruined by his Sherlock Holmes cosplay. Do you know who was the medical expert in the Norris case?

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MistressoftheDarkSide · 17/07/2024 13:26

There are several interesting articles on a site called the Justice Gap about Colin Norris.

WhisperGold · 13/08/2024 09:54

May have been mentioned already but just heard interesting piece from Phil Hammond on Lucy Letby trial in Private Eye podcast, Page 94.
It was the Bye Biden edition and it starts at 29:45 in.

parkrun500club · 13/08/2024 10:15

I also agree Meadows should have gone to jail.

Some of the lawyers involved in the Sally Clark case should have had regulatory proceedings against them as well (which I sincerely hope happens in the Post Office cases but the SRA is useless so probably not).

The Times has also had an article about the safety or otherwise of the Letby convictions.

I think the point for me is that someone went looking for patterns in the baby deaths. They weren't looking for evidence to convict Letby - in fact there was no evidence of wrongdoing at all. The fact that she was then present for every death (and when she moved from nights to days or vice versa, the deaths increased) is a key factor. However, she might have just been useless, rather than a murderer. Some of the evidence that the babies were murdered seems circumstantial in the extreme. I am on the fence about her innocence, there are bad people, but I don't think her convictions are safe.

ThePure · 17/08/2024 10:22

Shocking that the CPS could go into such a high profile trial and make such a basic mistake on what is surely key evidence

The retrial was only of one count of attempted murder. Surely this erroneous evidence being presented in court as factual means the other convictions could be unsafe?

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 17/08/2024 10:48

The swipe data wasn’t critical to the conviction. This doesn’t change anything. If you read the trial testimonies, instead of just relying on sound bites from the papers, you’ll see that the conviction is based on thousands of pieces of medical data. You’d have to overturn each sentence conviction individually and challenge all the medical data for each conviction.

She has 13 life orders. Even if one is over turned then she’d still be in prison.

Whatisthereason · 17/08/2024 12:39

I think it’s very much in the public interest for her to have a retrial. There’s clearly something very wrong. I would not want to work in the nhs and would discourage my dc from doing so as it’s a toxic environment. I’ve had issues myself with drs lying and notes being falsified I can absolutely see how she could be a scapegoat .

Whatisthereason · 17/08/2024 12:42

ThePure · 17/08/2024 10:22

Shocking that the CPS could go into such a high profile trial and make such a basic mistake on what is surely key evidence

The retrial was only of one count of attempted murder. Surely this erroneous evidence being presented in court as factual means the other convictions could be unsafe?

Shocking to us. Convenient for them.

GabrielOakRose · 17/08/2024 12:47

This recent programme was interesting and cast doubt on the evidence used. www.channel5.com/show/lucy-letby-did-she-really-do-it

OtterMouse · 17/08/2024 16:48

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ThePure · 17/08/2024 17:15

Yea no problem to present entirely false and misleading evidence in court because it 'wasn't critical to the conviction'

Why was it presented if it wasn't critical? and to realise the CPS have used this evidence that they admit was completely incorrect doesn't lead you to feel confident in everything else they presented. Surely it can't be Ok to just say things that are completely incorrect in a court of law and this have no impact.

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