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Where has the money for the NHS and schools gone?

151 replies

EmmaGrundyForPM · 11/06/2024 09:27

I'm not an economist so please cam someone explain this in lay terms to me?

The NHS and schools need far more funding. Along with other public services. But why is this? Taxes have risen, some costs have gone down, and yet there's not as much funding as,say, 20 years ago.

I work in local government. We've had wage stagnation for at least 10 years. In real terms, my pay is about 20% less. That's the same in a lot of other public services. I appreciate that other costs, especially building ones, have gone up.

Given that, as far as I can see, taxes haven't gone down, why is there now far less money to pay for public services?

OP posts:
BudgetQ · 11/06/2024 23:47

Did you know that just 5% of the nation’s wealth is owned by the poorest 50% of the population?

Did you know that over half of the UK’s wealth is owned by the richest 10%?

There’s your answer.

Vote the thieving Tories out.

whiteboardking · 11/06/2024 23:48

DrRuthGalloway · 11/06/2024 16:46

Gove made the curriculum ridiculously harder, including at early years/ reception level.
This means that a higher number of kids can't keep up with expectations from a very early age and automatically you get higher "SEN" and higher levels of student anxiety because of the pressure they are under

There's a knock on effect as school staff are also under pressure to attain these ridiculous results in an over packed, over difficult curriculum. They are then less resilient in dealing with students who are finding life difficult in one way or another. Ofsted then compounds all this as schools get very little kudos for being supportive, nurturing and inclusive but are easily marked down on attainment. Plus schools where everything is OK, that used to be graded satisfactory, are now graded at "requires improvement", which is a psychologically damaging term for something that is basically, nothing much wrong.

So, hard over packed curriculum, anxious students and failing students then leads to increase in anxiety based school avoidance and requests for ehcps. This all compounded by COVID school closures and subsequent focus on "catch up" instead of the soft skills that underpin learning - attention, attunement, listening, turn taking etc.

Basically, most of it boils down to government policy. Effing Tories.

This. Yr6 kids stressing over SATs.
Tutors for SATs never mind entrance exams. Yr7-9 buckling with exam workloads never mind Y10/11
Kids struggling. No support left. Puts more pressure on

whiteboardking · 11/06/2024 23:51

@zeddybrek the care home owner is the criminal here. The underfunded LA with staff working loads of hours to try and cope would throw money at it to try and tie. It around

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

Pinkfluffypencilcase · 11/06/2024 23:53

Remember the levelling you fund?

Wealthy areas are getting their bids approved. The levelling up secretary awarding not on need on deprived areas. Scandalous.

TizerorFizz · 12/06/2024 08:28

There is always a need for certain schemes in wealthier areas too. Mainly because wealthy doesn’t describe everyone and doesn’t, for example, mean the school buildings don’t need repair or transport doesn’t need investment.

The massive mistake was Labours plan for HS2. The east - west connection in the north should always have been a priority. It’s a ludicrously expensive project to send people down to London. The North made no case for East - West when it needed to. It was the cheerleader for getting down to London. Huge mistake. So quality of leaders, politicians, and business leaders makes a huge impact on levelling up. The North won’t beat London but needs more high paying roles.

Yalta · 12/06/2024 08:55

For the NHS, the budget was spent on irrelevant stuff (like painting the car park rainbow colours and not treating patients to the tests they need at their first appointment and getting what could be a small issue fixed instead the NHS has a habit of putting things off and hoping the patient goes away.
When they patient doesn’t go away and returns again and again to their doctor costing more and more money. When the patient is finally referred for tests it has usually got to a stage where huge amounts of money and a hospital bed stay is needed to fix what was originally a small issue

MaryMaryVeryContrary · 12/06/2024 09:01

Yalta · 12/06/2024 08:55

For the NHS, the budget was spent on irrelevant stuff (like painting the car park rainbow colours and not treating patients to the tests they need at their first appointment and getting what could be a small issue fixed instead the NHS has a habit of putting things off and hoping the patient goes away.
When they patient doesn’t go away and returns again and again to their doctor costing more and more money. When the patient is finally referred for tests it has usually got to a stage where huge amounts of money and a hospital bed stay is needed to fix what was originally a small issue

Ok so I’m sure painting a car park rainbow colours is a waste of money but it can’t ALL have gone on that. This is Daily Mail style hyperbole.

This will be an unpopular post but the money hasn’t ‘gone’ anywhere. The public are increasingly needy, constantly inflict things on themselves that cost money to resolve and this culture of entitlement along with the original cuts has left our services in a much worse place.

Just walk down your local high street and note the number of people who are overweight, smoking, vaping, eating rubbish. I can walk through my fairly average town and probably 70% of people fit this description. Kids in buggies sucking on fruit shoots and lollies at 10am.

People lurching from one domestic crisis to the next, taking in unsuitable men after 5 minutes, neglecting their kids, getting into fights that were completely avoidable.

And simultaneously telling the authorities to fuck off while demanding help and wanting to be bailed out every single time.

Our public are of very very low quality now, we have enabled a underclass of people who are just black holes of ‘need’ and make the country a much worse place to live in. But we have to ‘support’ them to continue to make rubbish decisions apparently, and so it goes on 🤷🏼‍♀️

Katypp · 12/06/2024 12:23

MaryMaryVeryContrary · 12/06/2024 09:01

Ok so I’m sure painting a car park rainbow colours is a waste of money but it can’t ALL have gone on that. This is Daily Mail style hyperbole.

This will be an unpopular post but the money hasn’t ‘gone’ anywhere. The public are increasingly needy, constantly inflict things on themselves that cost money to resolve and this culture of entitlement along with the original cuts has left our services in a much worse place.

Just walk down your local high street and note the number of people who are overweight, smoking, vaping, eating rubbish. I can walk through my fairly average town and probably 70% of people fit this description. Kids in buggies sucking on fruit shoots and lollies at 10am.

People lurching from one domestic crisis to the next, taking in unsuitable men after 5 minutes, neglecting their kids, getting into fights that were completely avoidable.

And simultaneously telling the authorities to fuck off while demanding help and wanting to be bailed out every single time.

Our public are of very very low quality now, we have enabled a underclass of people who are just black holes of ‘need’ and make the country a much worse place to live in. But we have to ‘support’ them to continue to make rubbish decisions apparently, and so it goes on 🤷🏼‍♀️

I am afraid I agree with you. I have noticed over the last very few years an increased tendancy for people seemingly opting out of adulting and expecting to be helped almost like a child. I think the dependency culture started with Gordon Brown's tax credits and has gathered momentum since then. Covid did not help, when the Government 'looked after' us and told us what do do and some people still seem to expect that now. Add to it the primary school culture for the past 30 yrars of everyone's special and everyone"s a winner has not helped. A quick look on social media and there are endless posts about mundane adult things such as reading energy bills, managing finances etc that people really should teach themselves instead of expecting others to do it for them.
The col payments also got people used to regular large handouts they are now complaining have been cut.
The culture nowadays of whataboutery and not calling people out on anything and not questioning anything in case it upsets them allows this to happen.

TizerorFizz · 12/06/2024 16:28

There is an “underclass” who take up a disproportionate amount of resources.

There is a huge need to work smarter. At my NHS appointment yesterday (10 months after referral) they told me that on Monday only 3 patients turned up for the clinics all day!!! Three. Two consultant eye surgeons with 3 patients. You couldn’t make it up. They don’t remind anyone of appointments. They don’t answer the phone. They don’t remind people via any modern method at all. The NHS is inefficient. It’s treated poorly by too many people but it’s also poorly run in many ways.

luckylavender · 12/06/2024 16:38

EmmaGrundyForPM · 11/06/2024 09:27

I'm not an economist so please cam someone explain this in lay terms to me?

The NHS and schools need far more funding. Along with other public services. But why is this? Taxes have risen, some costs have gone down, and yet there's not as much funding as,say, 20 years ago.

I work in local government. We've had wage stagnation for at least 10 years. In real terms, my pay is about 20% less. That's the same in a lot of other public services. I appreciate that other costs, especially building ones, have gone up.

Given that, as far as I can see, taxes haven't gone down, why is there now far less money to pay for public services?

Furlough, PPE & paying energy bills. Not difficult.

Teentaxidriver · 12/06/2024 17:53

Covid/ lock downs/ furlough/ PPE/ vaccination programs = billions and billions of pounds of expense

Teentaxidriver · 12/06/2024 17:55

Katypp · 12/06/2024 12:23

I am afraid I agree with you. I have noticed over the last very few years an increased tendancy for people seemingly opting out of adulting and expecting to be helped almost like a child. I think the dependency culture started with Gordon Brown's tax credits and has gathered momentum since then. Covid did not help, when the Government 'looked after' us and told us what do do and some people still seem to expect that now. Add to it the primary school culture for the past 30 yrars of everyone's special and everyone"s a winner has not helped. A quick look on social media and there are endless posts about mundane adult things such as reading energy bills, managing finances etc that people really should teach themselves instead of expecting others to do it for them.
The col payments also got people used to regular large handouts they are now complaining have been cut.
The culture nowadays of whataboutery and not calling people out on anything and not questioning anything in case it upsets them allows this to happen.

Totally agree.

MaryMaryVeryContrary · 12/06/2024 18:16

Teentaxidriver · 12/06/2024 17:55

Totally agree.

And me. Somebody once said to me ‘if you do something good for somebody, they won’t thank you. It just increases their expectations so you look unreasonable when you don’t do it again’ so bloody true

The entitlement is absolutely unreal and we need limits of how many ‘needs’ we are willing to or can afford to meet

MaryMaryVeryContrary · 12/06/2024 18:22

There is an “underclass” who take up a disproportionate amount of resources.

Yes I sadly agree. Take a heroin addict. They’ll be in constant contact with the NHS for their overdoses/infections and fight injuries, the police for their shoplifting/fighting/dealing/possession, the court system for the subsequent hearings, probation/prisons for their sentences, homeless and benefits services… I mean they cost many hundreds of thousands a year each. All without contributing a penny AND not to mention the passive services they’ll get - roads, military, the benefit of education through the professionals they see, the fact they usually have a few kids they pay no CMS for so the state will be bailing them out if they’re not in care…!

And to add to the insult they commit crime terrorise the public. The people who are paying to keep them alive. It’s unreal

TheThingIsYeah · 12/06/2024 19:30

@Katypp @MaryMaryVeryContrary

You are both so right.

Personal responsibility seems to have gone out the window. Doping half the population on furlough during the long hot spring of 2020 was the final nail in the coffin.

-It's Rishi's fault I can't give DS1 breakfast!
-It's the teacher's fault my 5 year old DD is still in nappies!
-I can't work because I'm scared of choo choo trains!
etc

You get the picture.

Lopine · 12/06/2024 19:35

@EmmaGrundyForPM the Liz Trust disaster mini budget lost an eye watering amount. To put this into context see

https://kamikwasi.tax/

And we lost trade due to Brexit presumably. Plus costs of health and social care have gone up due to ageing population and covid.

Mini-Budget. Major Catastrophe.

How much have Truss and Kwarteng cost the country so far?

https://kamikwasi.tax/

DramaLlamaBangBang · 12/06/2024 19:44

Sunshineonasameyday · 11/06/2024 10:29

But the budget is the budget, if you use it all on salaries, sick pay and pensions you'll have less for consumables. You can't magic money out of thin air.

Are you saying that, in the middle of a teaching recruitment and retention crisis that teachers shouldn't get pay rises? Pay rises need to be funded by adequate increases in school budgets. That is why money gets taken from resources, because central government doesn't fund pay rises, then blames teachers for asking for below inflation pay rises. How come we cant tax bankers an extra few pennies of their Multi million £ salaries and bonuses in case they leave the country, but can refuse to pay teachers, who are actually leaving the country?

DramaLlamaBangBang · 12/06/2024 19:58

TizerorFizz · 12/06/2024 16:28

There is an “underclass” who take up a disproportionate amount of resources.

There is a huge need to work smarter. At my NHS appointment yesterday (10 months after referral) they told me that on Monday only 3 patients turned up for the clinics all day!!! Three. Two consultant eye surgeons with 3 patients. You couldn’t make it up. They don’t remind anyone of appointments. They don’t answer the phone. They don’t remind people via any modern method at all. The NHS is inefficient. It’s treated poorly by too many people but it’s also poorly run in many ways.

I agree with this. Why not remind people of appointments by text? Why are they sending letters to people that often don't arrive until after the appointment? Why do you have to see about 5 people on a conveyor belt when you go to hospital?
There is an underclass that takes up huge amounts of resources, but unfortunately they will always be here. What do we do with drug addicts? You cant just leave them to die. What about poor parents?Maybe they should have their children removed far more quickly, but often they just go on to have more and more children, and it costs a fortune to remove them and put them into care, where they have terrible outcomes. All societies have these people. Its not unique to us.

lemonstolemonade · 12/06/2024 20:31

Firstly, ageing population. In 1970 there were four workers per pensioner. Now it is 2. This is because people are living longer, but the retirement age has not gone up enough to compensate for this (and it is debatable how much more it can go up really as some older people will be too sick to work past a certain age, especially in physical roles - we have also encouraged most young people to delay working for years to study too).

Secondly, unreasonable expectations about what healthcare can and should achieve. Both my grandmas had heart bypasses in their eighties on the NHS - one died soon after as was not that fit and heart still failing, other was diagnosed with dementia and had that for 10 years and was in a bad way for a long time with round the clock care. Honestly, it would probably have been better for both of them to have had a massive heart attack, as in times gone by. That sounds heartless, but the truth is that whilst we have managed to increase quantity of years lived, we haven't managed to increase the quality by nearly so much.

Thirdly, we locked down hugely and paid people a LOT of money to stay at home. In the US, they gave people money to keep them going enough to pay their bills/subsist rather than giving businesses money. Some businesses folded, but then they have spent a lot of money on stimulus coming out of the pandemic and the economy is on a roll. Those businesses that were no longer viable post covid have gone in the US, those that are still viable have come back again and new jobs and businesses have been created with the stimulus. We instead followed the European system and kept zombie businesses afloat with furlough and bounce back loans and some are still struggling, especially in the inflationary environment that has passed. Labour would also have spent this money, perhaps even more on income subsidy as the self employed gap was loudly bemoaned by them. We ultimately spent a lot of money on lockdown to prevent rationing healthcare in the pandemic to, largely, older people (who would have been the people turned away from overwhelmed hospitals, as in Italy), only to end up basically being in a portion in which healthcare is being rationed through the whole population post pandemic because we can't afford to invest more in healthcare.

Fourthly, we have a massive productivity crisis - public sector productivity has declined since 2008 and no one quite knows why this is. Some of it may be about headcount being in the wrong place, some Brexit, some about workers being unable to afford childcare and struggling to juggle work, demoralisation since austerity. Private sector productivity is lumpy and we don't have a strategy that incentivises high value manufacturing jobs that would bring more wealth across the country.

Across the whole of the economy, we have created a tax system that has cliff edges that disadvantage and discourage more work - the child benefit cliff edge and the cliff edge at £100k mean that people are often working for little benefit or are even better off cutting hours and paying for less childcare than working. Similar issues around withdrawal of benefits. The same for businesses - we have a high VAT threshold that means that just at the point at which people have a successful business that could hire another worker they have to add VAT - the threshold should be much lower and gradual so that people are not incentivised to stay below threshold to compete with similar businesses.

In my view, neither Labour nor the tories wants to do the hard stuff that will make a difference. The tories are more at fault as they were in power. However, anyone who opposed Theresa May's social care plan to use wealth to fill the gaps in social care in a progressive way is an absolute idiot, so Labour and the Lib Dem's (who branded the plan a dementia tax) can carry the can for that shitshow that is massively crippling the NHS and local authorities.

lemonstolemonade · 12/06/2024 20:34

But yes, better use of IT etc in the NHS might also help - I do get a reminder for my GP appointments and all private clinics and dentists do this, it should be possible to do this in the NHS

Yalta · 12/06/2024 21:58

I had an issue with my back initially that transferred to excruciating constant pain in my hip

I asked for a MRI and was told that an MRI costs too much. They preferred to guess

The NHS doing guess work cost the NHS probably over £250,000 over 7 years

Cost of this guess work to me meant I couldn’t work for 7 years and it took 7 years of my life

Cost if an MRI £300

Someone in the NHS needs to learn to add up and understand the cost of scrimping on testing

Zonder · 12/06/2024 22:09

There's a few people and companies you could start by looking at, for where the money has gone.

Michelle Mone
Liz Truss
Nadim Zawahi
Infosys (you know, the company owned by the Prime minister's in-laws)
Countless other buddies of the government who got fat profits for nothing.

haddockfortea · 12/06/2024 22:13

Circa £50 billion has gone on HS2.

MaryMaryVeryContrary · 12/06/2024 22:19

Zonder · 12/06/2024 22:09

There's a few people and companies you could start by looking at, for where the money has gone.

Michelle Mone
Liz Truss
Nadim Zawahi
Infosys (you know, the company owned by the Prime minister's in-laws)
Countless other buddies of the government who got fat profits for nothing.

Add it all up with some sources, and pop it here.

waltzingparrot · 12/06/2024 22:19

In 22/23, NHS paid out 2.6 billion on medical negligence claims which was an increase on previous years.

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