We need to talk about Lucy Letby

[HardwickHall]

As the “Lucy Letby denied leave to appeal” thread has filled up, I thought I’d start another thread to discuss the case, hopefully for discussion of the trial, evidence, prosecution and defence etc rather than fact free frothing.

I’ve just listened to episode 15 of “We Need To Talk About Lucy Letby” where they discuss the New Yorker article by Rachel Aviv and specifically the problems with the roster data table which was shown (several times as I understand it) by the prosecution during the trial. It’s quite shocking actually. Recommended listening.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/we-need-to-talk-about-lucy-letby/id1736761161?i=1000658160398

I did. I wasn't convinced either way by the end of it.

Potentially a lot worse for them to believe their precious children were killed when it may have been entirely different t circumstances that led to them dying. I’m all for having answers for closure but to have the wrong answer won’t help in the long run

the evidence that nobody ever saw her harm a baby, that a lot was based on opinions and theories not facts and how things were twisted (eg she searched for lots of people other than parents of babies on the unit)

I’ve listened to it.
What do you think happened?

Why do you think wrote the notes?
Were they planted?

So we don't accept any verdicts? Every court case gets re examined? We have a justice system as it is for a reason.

Yes there's been previous miscarriages of justice but they're a tiny %age. Thankfully most convictions are right and nothing will persuade me she's innocent. Nothing

She's where she deserves to be

when its a jury conviction id be all the more suspect of it,

Me too. I’ve not been able to watch UK commentary/news since reading it.
I fear this will be another massive miscarriage of justice case.
I also want to say that it is beyond awful for the parents and babies, if this does turn out to be a cover up, because if LL isn’t guilty, then there are many many questions to be answered.
Have we learnt nothing from the past? Horizon, anyone? Other miscarriages are available. And before someone says ‘that’s different’ it actually isn’t. Everyone believed everything they were told, until - oh wait - it was all lies and cover ups.
So the lesson is, everything is not necessarily what it seems.

No. We don’t. She was found guilty and jailed. Hope she rots.

excatly my point but better put

I honestly don't have that much faith in the UK justice system, but I genuinely don't think this is a case of miscarriage of justice. There is a lot of evidence against Letby, and if anything, the hospital management covered for her for a long time.

The evidence against her is a lot more than circumstantial, not least the mountains of clinical paperwork she had in her home, which she should not have had (obviously that in itself doesn't mean she is a murderer, but it's one factor that helps convince me).

Interestingly, the New Yorker article is no longer available in the UK, due to a court order, which also makes me wonder how factual it actually is.

I think it's much, much scarier that Letby was able to get away with harming children for as long as she did than the idea of a miscarriage of justice in this case.

You know in a 10 month trial there was a lot more evidence led than one roster don’t you?

if there’s so much evidence throwing doubt on her guilt how come it wasn’t led by her defence?

She’s as guilty as sin and where she needs to be.

I followed the podcast on it and honestly, I still have my doubts. I was expecting to feel very clear cut about it, but I didn’t.
I hope she was, because being sent down for that if it wasn’t her is horrendous.

horizon!!!

ffs. data based on a computer model that spewed out shit numbers in a small number of cases

one where senior figures told pure lies

one where when a full investigation was mounted - it was stopped

one where people had no good legal representation and no one to believe them

one where the people who prosecuted the case worked inside the same system

.

lucy let by was working in an nhs with processes that were not new or unique

lucy letby had plenty of people who could never accept a nurse would kill so many children

she had a great legal defence

the investigation was robust

the police and cps were independent to the nhs

this wasn’t numbers on a computer programme, it was babies living or dying.

.

it’s actually fucking revolting so suggest to the families of either horizon or Lucy letbys killings that they were remotely the same, let alone a similar systemic miscarriage of justice

get a cop on

This is addressed in the podcast I linked to. Have you heard of the Texas sharpshooter fallacy?

To all the families of the babies murdered by Lucy Letby, who may come across this thread, I am so sorry that you have to read shit like this. I can't begin to imagine all you have been through, and still idiots buy into stupid conspiracy theories.

Odd post. No, I’m quite sure who I am and I have never met or had any dealings with LL.

Indeed. Stop the conspiracy theories regarding this evil monster.

I really hope she is guilty because the alternative doesn't bear thinking about.

I'm a retired nurse and sometimes spikes of deaths do occur to particular members of staff. It's down to bad luck rather than murder and I dealt with the other end of the age continuum so deaths weren't unexpected and I had a run of deaths myself whilst on nightshift at one particular place. It did sound as though this baby unit wasn't capable of caring for the very sickest babies which was why it was downgraded to only care for less sick ones. I believe the article references the maternity unit which was still having excess deaths however and Letby never worked on that unit as she wasn't a midwife.

Taking home handover notes and the odd bit of paperwork is a hazard of the job as they end up in pockets and bags and you'd have to remember to take them back to work to dispose of them on your next shift. I'd just burn mine in the stove.

I hope she is guilty, but it's not as though there haven't been miscarriages of justice before.

Exactly.

Doesn't the OP know that there is a re-trial due to commence next week and the Police are still actively looking at further cases.

I guess some people just like to bring as much pain as possible to bereaved families - you're all sickos people who want to do that. I'm reporting this thread and hope it gets taken down.

I think its in really poor taste to post a sympathetic thread about a baby killer

This kind of hyperbole is why it's virtually impossible to have a neutral discussion about subjects like this. Nobody is sympathetic towards a baby killer. Nobody. It's the possibility that she ISN'T a baby killer that people want to discuss. IF it was possible to prove that she wasn't culpable, THEN she would deserve some - indeed, a lot - of sympathy.

The statistical evidence is unarguable if you are capable of understanding the maths

This is the problem with statistical evidence. No stats are ever unarguable and the majority of people don't have the mathematical skill to properly weigh it against other evidence. It does lead to miscarriages of justice. Anyone remember Sally Clark?

Anyway, letby probably is guilty. But I'm glad the system has the appeals process just in case.

The only thing off about this case is that the incompetent managers weren't in the dock straight after her .

There was endless news coverage of the case, at least one documentary and a couple of podcasts and you think a thread on MN will be more harmful to the bereaved families?

If you are so upset by it that you are unable to contribute without making unfounded accusations and name calling then perhaps you should hide the thread.

But she wasn’t convicted on the basis of statistical evidence…?

Exactly.