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We need to talk about Lucy Letby

232 replies

HardwickHall · 08/06/2024 14:13

As the “Lucy Letby denied leave to appeal” thread has filled up, I thought I’d start another thread to discuss the case, hopefully for discussion of the trial, evidence, prosecution and defence etc rather than fact free frothing.

I’ve just listened to episode 15 of “We Need To Talk About Lucy Letby” where they discuss the New Yorker article by Rachel Aviv and specifically the problems with the roster data table which was shown (several times as I understand it) by the prosecution during the trial. It’s quite shocking actually. Recommended listening.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/we-need-to-talk-about-lucy-letby/id1736761161?i=1000658160398

We Need To Talk About Lucy Letby: 15. New York, New York! on Apple Podcasts

‎We Need To Talk About Lucy Letby: 15. New York, New York! on Apple Podcasts

‎Show We Need To Talk About Lucy Letby, Ep 15. New York, New York! - 7 Jun 2024

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/we-need-to-talk-about-lucy-letby/id1736761161?i=1000658160398

OP posts:
scalt · 09/06/2024 18:51

As an aside, why was that video of her arrest publicly released? Was it to debunk the myth that she was dragged kicking and screaming from her home; or was the arresting officer trying to make some cash on the side?

Rubbishconfession · 09/06/2024 18:51

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 09/06/2024 16:54

Link to the previous thread where people were discussing some of their specific concerns on the last page or so.

Yet more linking. The fact that people can’t articulate why the trial was unfair or why she’s innocent is telling.

Chilledonsunday · 09/06/2024 18:54

scalt · 09/06/2024 18:51

As an aside, why was that video of her arrest publicly released? Was it to debunk the myth that she was dragged kicking and screaming from her home; or was the arresting officer trying to make some cash on the side?

Arrest videos are released all the time, it was the same with Wayne Couzens.

Rubbishconfession · 09/06/2024 18:54

scalt · 09/06/2024 18:51

As an aside, why was that video of her arrest publicly released? Was it to debunk the myth that she was dragged kicking and screaming from her home; or was the arresting officer trying to make some cash on the side?

That’s a pretty horrible accusation to make.

Police often release footage of arrests, LL was by no means a rare occurence.

BeetlejuiceBeetlejuiceBeetlejuice · 09/06/2024 19:06

Ia241 · 09/06/2024 14:34

Wow the rudeness of some posters on this thread! Like the post above, quoting people and bullying them. Pure bullies.

Whatever your opinion she's not getting out of prison anytime soon, like it or not.

Looking forward to seeing all your opinions and catching up with chat here next week. Popcorn at the ready.

So it’s okay for any of us raising concerns to be vilified across two threads yet make one comment back and suddenly we are bullies? Grow up.

HardwickHall · 09/06/2024 19:23

Rubbishconfession · 09/06/2024 16:17

But you haven’t put forth any opinions yourself, OP, all you and other Miss Marples do is refer people to the repeat-fest New Yorker article and a podcast.

What do YOU think?

What evidence is problematic for you and why?

Why do you think she’s innocent?

Some aspects of the trial which concern me are:

the lack of any actual evidence (non-circumstantial)
the rota table (so much wrong with this)
the prosecution presenting the handwritten notes as a “confession”
the failure of the defence to put any opposing views/explanations to the above (calling expert statisticians, psychologists etc)

OP posts:
TonTonMacoute · 09/06/2024 19:58

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

TonTonMacoute · 09/06/2024 20:36

HardwickHall · 09/06/2024 15:28

Here we go again with the “You must not question LL’s trial because of her sex/age/race/hair colour”. Disturbing. These are irrelevant or they should be - obviously to some pp they are very important.

But can you honestly say that people aren't doubting her guilt because of what she looks like?
^^
That anyone can be capable of murdering new-born babies is a horror so unspeakable that most of us find it hard to face. We simply can’t believe it because to believe such evil exists renders everything—or everyone—we know and love at risk of senseless harm. People are struggling with the truth that when they stare this particular evil in the face, it is a blonde, blue-eyed, thin, attractive, churchgoing white woman staring back. It is a familiar face. It is the kind of face we have all been conditioned to understand as loving, kind, maternal; the face of someone good. Even after her conviction, newspapers were printing photographs of her parents hand-in-hand alongside her smiling, childhood photos. These are the types of front pages usually reserved for victims of murders, not of the perpetrators of such heinous crimes.
^^
Professor of psychology Dr Marissa Harrison has warned of the importance of challenging preconceived notions of others—or “schemas”—when looking into serial murders. Dr Harrison’s research shows that Lucy Letby does in fact fit the bill of a female serial killer, even though “most people are not ready to believe that a woman can kill”. Writing in the Guardian, she said: “We must be prepared to recognise that, sometimes, the monster is a vanilla nurse who took dance lessons, fancied a staff doctor, and had teddy bears, fairy lights and a polka-dot dressing gown in her bedroom... and yet destroyed lives in a most extraordinary way.”

OperationSquid · 09/06/2024 20:39

Rubbishconfession · 09/06/2024 16:17

But you haven’t put forth any opinions yourself, OP, all you and other Miss Marples do is refer people to the repeat-fest New Yorker article and a podcast.

What do YOU think?

What evidence is problematic for you and why?

Why do you think she’s innocent?

a good portion seems to be conjecture and various gaps etc for a start

HardwickHall · 09/06/2024 20:53

Even after her conviction, newspapers were printing photographs of her parents hand-in-hand alongside her smiling, childhood photos. These are the types of front pages usually reserved for victims of murders, not of the perpetrators of such heinous crimes

You don’t need to look very hard to see that this is just not true.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/chilling-family-photographs-show-sick-10475673.amp

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4523858/amp/Pictured-12-Ian-Brady-happy-popular-boy.html

Chilling pictures show sick Moors Murderer Ian Brady as a happy baby boy

The happy child poses for his picture in a pram during his childhood with foster family - as well as holding a baby just three years before he embarked on killing spree

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/chilling-family-photographs-show-sick-10475673.amp

OP posts:
Ia241 · 09/06/2024 20:59

BeetlejuiceBeetlejuiceBeetlejuice · 09/06/2024 19:06

So it’s okay for any of us raising concerns to be vilified across two threads yet make one comment back and suddenly we are bullies? Grow up.

Thank you sweetie. I will try but I'm quite content. 😘

Ia241 · 09/06/2024 21:05

scalt · 09/06/2024 18:51

As an aside, why was that video of her arrest publicly released? Was it to debunk the myth that she was dragged kicking and screaming from her home; or was the arresting officer trying to make some cash on the side?

Yes. It's was also to show she lied in Court as it was brought up.

She wasn't arrested in her nightwear. She had that rather fetching Lee Cooper hoodie on.

Lucimaya · 09/06/2024 21:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

They're theories are quite laughable though.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 09/06/2024 23:08

Rubbishconfession · 09/06/2024 18:51

Yet more linking. The fact that people can’t articulate why the trial was unfair or why she’s innocent is telling.

What a silly response. People have already articulated it so I linked to where they did that rather than expecting everyone to type it out again, which tbh they’re unlikely to do when you asked so offensively and aggressively.

I am not interested in wasting time trying to convince people who are just going to throw insults around.

Terea · 09/06/2024 23:19

scalt · 09/06/2024 18:51

As an aside, why was that video of her arrest publicly released? Was it to debunk the myth that she was dragged kicking and screaming from her home; or was the arresting officer trying to make some cash on the side?

Didn’t see it but just reading your post made me think ‘Cliff Richard’ and the BBC.

Terea · 09/06/2024 23:26

HardwickHall · 09/06/2024 19:23

Some aspects of the trial which concern me are:

the lack of any actual evidence (non-circumstantial)
the rota table (so much wrong with this)
the prosecution presenting the handwritten notes as a “confession”
the failure of the defence to put any opposing views/explanations to the above (calling expert statisticians, psychologists etc)

I am not as clever as the amazing New Yorker reporter who has written a very very long and thought-provoking article.

i think I might be arrested if I link it because of our very bizarre reporting laws, which is in and of itself another potential thread.

Anyway. If you have any friends or relatives in the US, ask them to send you the link. Apparently that’s legal.

Doncha just love the Great British Freedom of Speech?

and @HardwickHall thank you for starting this thread, both for the interesting debate and the exposure of some extraordinarily thick individuals (you won’t know who you are).

Ia241 · 10/06/2024 00:24

Well it's Monday already and I wonder if the mass murderer will make an appearance today.

CelynMelyn · 10/06/2024 05:03

Ia241 · 10/06/2024 00:24

Well it's Monday already and I wonder if the mass murderer will make an appearance today.

Not today. They will be selecting the jury today. The serial killer of babies is not due to turn up until Tuesday.

Whats the bets she won’t be giving evidence this time 🧐

sebanna · 10/06/2024 07:04

Hoping justice is finally served for baby K and that her family can find peace.

SerafinasGoose · 10/06/2024 08:49

Whats the bets she won’t be giving evidence this time.

After her last performance on the witness stand you'd think her defence team would strongly advise against it.

I don't think I've heard a more damning testimony in a defendant's own defence since Steve Wright answered 'it would seem so, yes', to every inexplicable coincidence put to him.

The prosecution wove a clear, succinct picture of TEN months' worth of extensive evidence in what amounted to nothing short of a brilliant piece of lawyering.

The defence simply couldn't answer it.

Also, I don't know where some people upthread get the idea that circumstantial evidence is somehow not 'real' evidence. It is. One piece on its own might well be a flimsy read to rely on but it's the overall picture and the weight of the evidence taken together that is important.

The Letby case illustrates this very well. The picture was compelling.

CelynMelyn · 10/06/2024 11:17

SerafinasGoose · 10/06/2024 08:49

Whats the bets she won’t be giving evidence this time.

After her last performance on the witness stand you'd think her defence team would strongly advise against it.

I don't think I've heard a more damning testimony in a defendant's own defence since Steve Wright answered 'it would seem so, yes', to every inexplicable coincidence put to him.

The prosecution wove a clear, succinct picture of TEN months' worth of extensive evidence in what amounted to nothing short of a brilliant piece of lawyering.

The defence simply couldn't answer it.

Also, I don't know where some people upthread get the idea that circumstantial evidence is somehow not 'real' evidence. It is. One piece on its own might well be a flimsy read to rely on but it's the overall picture and the weight of the evidence taken together that is important.

The Letby case illustrates this very well. The picture was compelling.

I couldn’t agree more.

There will always be those who go all out to disagree with everyone/everything. Always fighting for the underdog as it were. If they can’t understand the evidence, which was perfectly clear to most, and choose to listen to the distorted views of some crackpot(s) who offers an alternative, let them crack on.

I’m sure Ben Myers will do his very best to make she doesn’t get on the stand this time round. The number of posters on SM who claim her defence was weak obviously have no idea about Ben Myers KC or his previous reputation. The saying “Nobody can defend the indefensible” has certainly been proved to be true in this case.

Letby proved what she is when she took the stand. Baby K’s parents deserve closure one way or the other.

xile · 12/06/2024 22:37

For some reason, I'm reminded of Mrs Merton's question "So, what first attracted you to the millionaire, Paul Daniels?"

Kittybythelighthouse · 14/06/2024 02:34

Rubbishconfession · 09/06/2024 18:51

Yet more linking. The fact that people can’t articulate why the trial was unfair or why she’s innocent is telling.

This was articulated by plenty of posters on the previous (now locked) thread. No one there was able to provide any genuine good faith response beyond “omg you love baby killers!” 🫠 or “You just think she looks nice!” 🙄 but okay I’ll bite.

Disclaimer: Before the breathless “omg you love baby killers!” pearl clutchers get started, no one (literally NO ONE) who is questioning the trial thinks LL is a proven baby killer, obviously. That’s rather the point. To add, this case didn’t happen in a vacuum. We all live under the same justice system (in the UK) and we are all affected by issues within it, as are our own children. All of us are very much entitled (and indeed have a responsibility in a democratic society) to hold our justice system to rigorous high account. It does not help the parents to put a head, any head, on a spike as a murderer if that’s not what actually happened. If failures elsewhere caused these poor babies to die then this is extremely in the public interest, but it is also in the interest of the parents. You are not a hero for the parents or anyone if you seek to shut down any questioning of the justice system in a democratic society.

Now, just two for starters:

First point: The infamous insulin tests - the actual lab that returned those tests explicitly state in their guidance that the tests are not definitive and should not be used forensically, as they can return false positives. There is a second, more thorough, test that should be done in the event of a positive result. This step was not taken for either test. Presumably the doctors at the time didn’t find cause to be worried because A: the above small print + the fact that both of those babies are alive to this day and B: one of the results showed enough insulin to kill a grown man, let alone a vulnerable pre term neonate, yet the baby did not die. This would seem to support the idea of a false positive result as per the testing labs guidance. It was only years later, when it was far too late to do a second test, that different doctors decided that these results are hard evidence of attempt to murder. The jury weren’t made aware of this. Does this seem right to you?

Second point: The air embolism theory - The medical expert who wrote the air embolism in neonates paper that the prosecution heavily relied on has stated that these deaths do not fit with air embolism in any diagnostic sense. Side note: he was not called to the trial despite his research forming basically the entire basis of the air embolism argument. Again, the jury did not know this either. Does that seem right?

These points (btw they’re independently verifiable for your pleasure) aren’t the only issues with the case, but they are fairly fundamental I think. They call into question whether anyone was murdering babies. The salacious idea of a serial killer nurse is of course much more dramatic and sells more papers than the much more likely, but sadly banal, possibility of a spike in vulnerable neonate deaths due to sepsis in an absolute shit show (pardon my French, but it was) of a hospital, underfunded and well beyond breaking point.

As per the RCPCH review in 2016 the COCH neonatal unit had extremely stressed (often in tears) overworked and under qualified staff and too few of them, a serious lack of appropriate equipment, it was cramped, cots too close together (huge infection spread risk), and there was raw sewage backing up into the NICU (of all places). COCH was a hospital absolutely on its knees. It should never have had most of those infants as patients based on its level 2 status alone, which it notably got downgraded from the instant Letby was taken off the ward. If you ask me, something is rotten in Denmark and it’s not just the raw sewage in the NICU.

Truth is I’d genuinely love to have a conversation with someone who engages in good faith and has solid, reasonable, explanations for the many issues myself and others are seeing in this case. It would be a great comfort to me to be able to go “ah okay, looks like she did it after all” and return to never thinking about this, just as I did until a few weeks ago. I have not found that person yet. All I see are ad hominems, claims that the New Yorker is a trash rag with no editorial process (a frankly laughable claim that only makes the person saying it look stupid), and emotional blackmail - I.e you shouldn’t ask questions or think about those uncomfortable things in case you upset the parents etc. This just makes me even more concerned about the tone of this whole thing, the case itself as well as the highly emotional response to any questions being asked, no matter how reasonable, evidenced, or sedate. If you are emotionally attached to the idea of LL being guilty, to the extent that you’d prefer to stop your ears and go lalala than hear anything at all that remotely threatens that idea, you should really have a good think about why that is. I say this genuinely. It is worrying.

(Just FYI I may not engage as much with this thread as I did with the other one as I’m travelling with work atm)

Jifmicroliquid · 14/06/2024 07:59

Kittybythelighthouse · 14/06/2024 02:34

This was articulated by plenty of posters on the previous (now locked) thread. No one there was able to provide any genuine good faith response beyond “omg you love baby killers!” 🫠 or “You just think she looks nice!” 🙄 but okay I’ll bite.

Disclaimer: Before the breathless “omg you love baby killers!” pearl clutchers get started, no one (literally NO ONE) who is questioning the trial thinks LL is a proven baby killer, obviously. That’s rather the point. To add, this case didn’t happen in a vacuum. We all live under the same justice system (in the UK) and we are all affected by issues within it, as are our own children. All of us are very much entitled (and indeed have a responsibility in a democratic society) to hold our justice system to rigorous high account. It does not help the parents to put a head, any head, on a spike as a murderer if that’s not what actually happened. If failures elsewhere caused these poor babies to die then this is extremely in the public interest, but it is also in the interest of the parents. You are not a hero for the parents or anyone if you seek to shut down any questioning of the justice system in a democratic society.

Now, just two for starters:

First point: The infamous insulin tests - the actual lab that returned those tests explicitly state in their guidance that the tests are not definitive and should not be used forensically, as they can return false positives. There is a second, more thorough, test that should be done in the event of a positive result. This step was not taken for either test. Presumably the doctors at the time didn’t find cause to be worried because A: the above small print + the fact that both of those babies are alive to this day and B: one of the results showed enough insulin to kill a grown man, let alone a vulnerable pre term neonate, yet the baby did not die. This would seem to support the idea of a false positive result as per the testing labs guidance. It was only years later, when it was far too late to do a second test, that different doctors decided that these results are hard evidence of attempt to murder. The jury weren’t made aware of this. Does this seem right to you?

Second point: The air embolism theory - The medical expert who wrote the air embolism in neonates paper that the prosecution heavily relied on has stated that these deaths do not fit with air embolism in any diagnostic sense. Side note: he was not called to the trial despite his research forming basically the entire basis of the air embolism argument. Again, the jury did not know this either. Does that seem right?

These points (btw they’re independently verifiable for your pleasure) aren’t the only issues with the case, but they are fairly fundamental I think. They call into question whether anyone was murdering babies. The salacious idea of a serial killer nurse is of course much more dramatic and sells more papers than the much more likely, but sadly banal, possibility of a spike in vulnerable neonate deaths due to sepsis in an absolute shit show (pardon my French, but it was) of a hospital, underfunded and well beyond breaking point.

As per the RCPCH review in 2016 the COCH neonatal unit had extremely stressed (often in tears) overworked and under qualified staff and too few of them, a serious lack of appropriate equipment, it was cramped, cots too close together (huge infection spread risk), and there was raw sewage backing up into the NICU (of all places). COCH was a hospital absolutely on its knees. It should never have had most of those infants as patients based on its level 2 status alone, which it notably got downgraded from the instant Letby was taken off the ward. If you ask me, something is rotten in Denmark and it’s not just the raw sewage in the NICU.

Truth is I’d genuinely love to have a conversation with someone who engages in good faith and has solid, reasonable, explanations for the many issues myself and others are seeing in this case. It would be a great comfort to me to be able to go “ah okay, looks like she did it after all” and return to never thinking about this, just as I did until a few weeks ago. I have not found that person yet. All I see are ad hominems, claims that the New Yorker is a trash rag with no editorial process (a frankly laughable claim that only makes the person saying it look stupid), and emotional blackmail - I.e you shouldn’t ask questions or think about those uncomfortable things in case you upset the parents etc. This just makes me even more concerned about the tone of this whole thing, the case itself as well as the highly emotional response to any questions being asked, no matter how reasonable, evidenced, or sedate. If you are emotionally attached to the idea of LL being guilty, to the extent that you’d prefer to stop your ears and go lalala than hear anything at all that remotely threatens that idea, you should really have a good think about why that is. I say this genuinely. It is worrying.

(Just FYI I may not engage as much with this thread as I did with the other one as I’m travelling with work atm)

You have articulated my thoughts far better than I could have. I agree with everything you have said.

I really hope she is guilty, because the other doesn’t bear thinking about. Unfortunately, because of the emotive content of this trial, people just want someone to blame. An evil killer nurse fits that bill.
But I really have my doubts.

Namerchangee · 14/06/2024 09:20

In my experience, medics are often extremely reluctant to state when child injuries are non-accidental, they are so blame averse. That alone suggests that there was enough credible evidence here to convict her in my mind. While your efforts to hold the judicial system to account are laudable, I think you’re banging a drum here to no avail. She is guilty.

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