We need to talk about Lucy Letby

[HardwickHall]

As the “Lucy Letby denied leave to appeal” thread has filled up, I thought I’d start another thread to discuss the case, hopefully for discussion of the trial, evidence, prosecution and defence etc rather than fact free frothing.

I’ve just listened to episode 15 of “We Need To Talk About Lucy Letby” where they discuss the New Yorker article by Rachel Aviv and specifically the problems with the roster data table which was shown (several times as I understand it) by the prosecution during the trial. It’s quite shocking actually. Recommended listening.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/we-need-to-talk-about-lucy-letby/id1736761161?i=1000658160398

She’s been found guilty by a jury who saw all the evidence and her appeal was denied. That’s good enough for me. Let the families move on.

We don't NEED to talk about her. She should be well & truly forgotten about

She's a convicted serial killer who's going to, rightfully, spend the rest if her life in jail.

She was convicted by a jury who were privy to a lot of information we don't know.

I think its in really poor taste to post a sympathetic thread about a baby killer

The trials over, she has no grounds for appeal. Let's stop giving her publicity and let the poor parents grieve their horrific losses

Ben Goldacre's discussion of sharpshooter fallacy and Dutch nurse convicted of multiple murders are strikingly similar. From 14 years ago.

I have read the New Yorker article. It seems to be carefully constructed to raise qualms about the correctness of Lucy's conviction. Reading it did make me wonder for the first time whether she could actually be innocent.

The enormity of such a potential miscarriage of justice takes one's breath away. Thus I can understand the urgency of OP's question "we need to talk..."

However, I genuinely cannot believe that the writer put as much time and effort in to producing the piece as did the many professional people who were involved in the process which ultimately decided she is guilty.

In June 2015 the hospital started an internal review looking into the deaths. In Feb 2016 an external review was initiated. In May 2017 the police were asked to investigate.

In July 2018 Lucy was arrested for the first time and bailed pending further inquiries by the police. In June 2019 she was arrested and bailed again whilst further fact-finding was carried out. In November 2020 she was arrested and charged with the murders and attempted murders.

Her trial took 9 months from October 2022 to July 2023. The jury deliberated for 22 days before returning guilty verdicts.

An awful lot of expert opinion was involved in the reviews and criminal investigations and trial. It just does not stack up that one journalist knows better than all of them.

May the victims rest in peace
May the families find closure
May the NHS find a way to stop thus happening again

That's all we need to talk about

That's true but the only way a barrister can be sure their client is lying is if the client tells them they are. Highly unlikely that a client would admit lying to their barrister.

Actually she was denied leave to appeal, so the appeal itself has not been heard

The statistical evidence is unarguable if you are capable of understanding the maths

She did it.

The nhs is horrifically underfunded and understaffed,
This issue should be addressed as a priority but if it was institutional failure that caused those deaths then all the other nurses on the ward would have had elevated statistics too

You've read an article about Lucy Letby and on that basis you think she should be able to appeal? Doesn't stand up really does it?

Denied though because she had no grounds for appeal was it not?

Agreed. And Letby was not convicted on the statistics of a staff rota, as some seem to think.

and there has never been any miscarriages or mistakes made of justice ? untill the system is 100% perfect then people will examine the cases, plus we do live in a democracy do we not ?

and there has never been any miscarriages or mistakes made of justice ? untill the system is 100% perfect then people will examine the cases, plus we do live in a democracy do we not ?

I have no idea whether she is guilty or not. Sadly that is how much confidence I have in the British legal system. Its not even a worry about accidental miscarriages of justice. We know that police/ courts and vested interests conspire against groups and individuals. I cite Andrew Malkinson and the post office 'criminals'. Anyone who has any insight at all knows that the fact you are denied an appeal does not mean you are guilty.

This.

but what if it was a wrong verdict ? im not saying it is wrong but considering how much evidence is not 100% and maybe after seeing to many csi or ncis shows ect then theres alot of details or questions still to be answered or improved upon with this case

yes, you only have to think that americans have voted in trump, he tried to overthrow democracy - and they want to vote him in again! to see their attitude to law, order, justice is entirely different

their systematic distrust of the ‘system’ ‘big pharma’ etc… capitalism is eating them up.

they think our judges, civil service, hospitals, bosses etc is the same - it’s not.

of course human nature is similar - people are self preserving normally.

ive never known bias like it. today i watched dr Phil interview trump - made me think how many americans ares devoid of critical thinking.

it just doesn’t hold up the same over here.

lucy letby has been found guilty beyond all reasonable doubt, by a jury of her peers, in one of the best legal systems in the world

I have worked in NHS. I wouldn't be surprised if she is a scapegoat. But most likely we will necer know.

thats what some of what ive read about it, seems to point too,

Me too. Anyone concerned by the article should listen to all 60-odd episodes of The Trial podcast too before getting too worried about a miscarriage of justice.

I don't think the police, courts and jury are interested in covering up for any NHS failings some how

i could believe it that the nhs would scape goat someone

… but - how would it start/stop around letby if it was solely due to bad management/systemic in the ward. ? such direct finger pointing must be a set up. i don’t believe anyone would kill babies when she was on duty to continue adding to evidence it was her - to hide the evidence 10 babies died due to lack of proper care for example. the statistics point to her because it was her.

our legal defence system is excellent and with such a popular case based on such ‘weak’ evidence according to the article - she would have solicitors/barristers falling over themselves to get her found not guilty

the case to try her was long, protracted. ample time, multiple angles to argue in her favour.

then she had a thorough appeals process again with ample quality of legal staff - presumably more so due to opinions of a defence available more so after her first trial

there was every opportunity for her to advocate effectively.

legal staff don’t hear “oh gosh she’s a child killer i won’t work that hard”

What makes you think they haven’t? I certainly have. I’m not convinced either way.

Hmm, OP, are you sure you're not that friend of hers who didn't attend the trial but was convinced of her innocence?