Worried about my brother

[Cooper77]

My brother is 47 and lives alone with my mother. He has always lived there. He suffers from depression and anxiety, though he won’t see a doctor. He’s never really worked and spends most of his time playing video games. My mother has enabled this because it suits her. My dad died ten years ago, and she has no other family (apart from me).

What worries me is what’s going to happen if my mother gets ill or dies. They really stick their heads in the sand about this. She is 77 and in good health, but it’s just a question of time. The problem is that he’s never been officially diagnosed. He has no label or statement and has never claimed any benefits, so he doesn’t appear on any government records. He just lives off my mother (who inherited a bit of life insurance when dad died). He also has a blank CV and no real work experience or training. I’m worried what will happen if:

1. My mother has a stroke or develops a serious illness and has to go into a nursing home. If the house has to be sold to pay for her care, will my brother be homeless? Does he have any rights to stay there?

2. My mother dies. If that happens, we would sell the house (he says he doesn’t want to live there when mum has gone) and divide everything down the middle. That means he’d come out with just enough to buy a flat somewhere. But then what? Say mum dies when he’s 56 and she’s 86. How is he going to pay for food, heating, electricity, etc? Who is going to give him a job at 56 with no qualifications and a blank CV?!

Also, he has paid no National Insurance, so won’t qualify for a state pension.

I’d appreciate any feedback, in part because I will show my brother your replies. Hopefully they will motivate him to do something.

OP, maybe if you can temporarily and partially step into the role held by your mother, but be a tougher less selfish version of her. Maybe that would move him forward?
The danger I guess would be that he will want to trap you in that role. And of course that you are having to work and put in effort because others have had a lifetime of not bothering.
The old problem of being caught between resentment if you do it and guilt if you don't 🤷🏼‍♀️

He's never claimed benefits, and has often said he never would as it's unfair

Bwahahaha! But not ‘unfair’ to sponge off mum?

He’d have nothing to be ashamed of if he actually was her carer, making meals, cleaning house, diy, driving her to apps etc

And that could bring a small amount in - carer’s allowance or at minimum carer’s stamp

Many many women struggle on with actual diagnosed depression, disabilities or trauma - seemingly much more acceptable for men to throw their hands up and be coddled by those women - the poor pathetic little critters

If he cares that much about his mum’s welfare exactly what is he currently doing to balance the care and keep she’s giving him?

Well, she was a nurse, so is pretty hardened to death and disease. I have friends whose parents are the same.

I hope she wasn't inflicting her fascination with death on her patients!

I work in a hospital, we are all fully aware that we will not live forever. But talking about it constantly? Not normal, and not a positive thing.

My partners brother is in his late 50s and still lives off his mum. He had no disabilities and is NT. She pays the rent and all the bills on his flat, he even takes his washing round. He washes dishes at her social club a few hours a week for 'pocket money', but is otherwise completely dependent on her. She's 86. I joke that when MIL dies 'Pete' will be knocking on our door to be looked after, but I worry he actually will.

I see a lot of people in my job who have barely worked in the Uk and have lived abroad for years and they come back to the Uk when they reach state retirement age and because they are british citizens are eligible to full pension credit assuming they have little savings and no private pensions from abroad.

This is such an interesting thread as I thought that we were the only people that had someone in the family like that. The relative in question is actually older than your brother but has never left home or shown any intention of doing so. He does work but work seems to be the only thing, he doesn't seem to have any hobbies or ever had any sort of a relationship but he doesn't put himself out there to do anything about it.
All the other siblings have all married, had children, have jobs and leading independent lives but he just never seems to have got going. Still lives at home, in his childhood bedroom with a mother who still cooks, cleans and does his life admin for him despite being a pensioner. I think there is fault on both sides as she 100% enables him and still thinks that she should still be running around after an adult. He is just too comfortable and has got set in his ways. I think he has just got left behind in life. Both parents now have got health needs and while he is happy to live there, wants to do very little to nothing to help. He doesn't seem to think there is anything wrong with still living off your parents. My parents of similar age are completely free, no caring responsibilities and have not had for many years.
We have the same problem too that he is getting older and the parents are getting older too so the situation is not going to get any easier. We have had this conversation so many times about what will happen if the parents care needs get worse or they die, what happens to him and the house as he has no life skills? It is such a difficult situation and one that we don't have any answers too. Sympathies to all similar.

It was my friends uncle. They had a big house but the mother seemed to live forever. Ended up in a nursing home for years which incurred costs. Big bills to be paid when she died and house was sold. He got the shock of his life as he had never lived anywhere else, and he was into his 60s at least.

She said that he ended up in a homeless shelter and wouldn't speak to his siblings. I do think his siblings could have done more for him. They were quite wealthy and could have pitched in to buy him a small flat which they could repossess or sell when he died. There was just no plan b for him.

Could your brother be paid to be her carer? It would be great if they could avoid nursing home costs and retain property.

I dont like some of the judgemental posts about your brother made by posters. He is obviously not mentally strong, and the set up suits your mother and him.

Another brother of mine was similar. He didn't work all throughout his 20s. He started in his 30s and been working for years now. A nice job like a postman, or something parttime might suit your brother.

In Ireland, its very very easy to get the dole. Your brother should get diagnosed for depression. He will need govt support.

That's not true. Her brother doesn't own the property or have a right to live there while care fees are paid for by society.

You're inserting yourself into the problem and lining yourself up to be his next provider.

You're complaining he's being enabled and yet taking on the role yourself. He needs to help himself, the only way is to let him make his own mistakes. Once he has to do something himself, instead of it being arranged for him, he'll become a much better person for it.

It's for them to decide on and sort out themselves. Stay completely out of it.

Well, I meant that she is trying to put her children's minds at rest. She's into her 70s, has diabetes and other conditions, and isn't in great shape. None of her children live with her, and me and my partner (her son) are quite a long way from home. I don't suppose she goes on and on about death to the lady who serves her in Tesco! She just tries to reassure her kids that they don't need to worry about her, that she's not afraid of death, that they must live their own lives, etc.

I mentioned my MIL merely for contrast. My own mother never talks about death and has grown a bit clingy. I didn't think she'd get like this, but a series of traumas broke her. Her (beloved) mum died suddenly, then her dad (who was a difficult man) suffered a long and painful illness, which she nursed him through, and then her husband (my dad) died at the end of it all. My brother was in his 30s by then, and I'd married and moved away. To be fair to him, he's felt responsible for her ever since – not so much her physical health as her mental health. After my dad died, they settled into a mutually destructive/enmeshed situation. She sort of clung to him, and in return provided him with somewhere to live, rent free, plus food, etc.

They both live in denial. She's convinced herself that he wouldn't cope on his own and that he needs her. When he was a troubled 20-something that was true. Today it isn't. I think he'd cope just fine if he had a job and his own place. But it suits her to think that he'd fall apart because she doesn't want to be on her own for the first time at 77. He's convinced himself that she wouldn't cope even if he continued living at home but got a job.

God, that's scary. Do you know what became of him?

Right now my mother is perfectly fit, apart from a curvature of the spine. Down the line he may be able to claim carer's allowance, but not now, I don't think. She's on Prozac, but who isn't?

Does anyone know how Citizens Advice works? Can you send them an email setting out your worries?

Unfortunately, you're right to be concerned, he's not in a good situation. I think you all need to be realistic - if/when something happens to your DM, he's not suddenly going to be able to manage his own life and handle working or looking for work. He will the same as now, just older, having suffered a major bereavement and having lost the support of your mother.

If he's not worked and not been on benefits, he won't have made any national insurance contributions, so he won't be eligible for non means tested benefits. If he inherits more than £16k, he won't qualify for low income benefits. From what you say, he may well not qualify for PIP.

I'm sorry, I know this is probably serious negativity that you could do without, but I think the three of you need to sit down together and have a serious discussion about what to do. Because the situation is unlikely to improve without action. Easier to do it now, while he has the support of your mother.

You need to be having this conversation with him, not mumsnet. Spell out the possible future for him. Maybe he needs a wake-up call. By not saying anything, you’re entitling him as well. Even if it’s something as simple as getting him to claim benefits now, and helping him through this process.

Have you seen the will? Could your mum have possibly left it all to him, as you’re settled so don’t need the money … ( it happens).

Please don't do this. My brother would happily let me take all responsibility for his life and then anything which went wrong would be my fault. You obviously love your brother and that is to your credit but he is using the carer card to his benefit. Lots of adult children support parents and also work. He's making excuses.

Thankyou, he needs to hear this kind of thing. But so does my mother. Thinking about it, I'd say she's being more unreasonable than he is. She sort of manipulates him. And I think she's convinced herself that she's doing it for him. I don't know if she ever worries what will happen after she's gone. It isn't just money. He needs to establish some kind of independent life so that he can survive emotionally and psychologically. He's 47 atm. If, let's say, he's 56 when she dies, how the hell will he cope? Not only will he have to cope with all the grief, he'll also have to leave the house in which he's lived all his life. Those two things alone are enough of a challenge. But on top of that he'll have to find a new place to live, and find a job (as a 56-year-old man with a blank CV), and be on his own for the first time.

Also, he doesn't seem to grasp that he isn't going to inherit that much. Yes, my mother will leave the house and some savings, but even if none of that is taken to pay for care costs (i.e if she dies in her sleep one night), once we've paid inheritance tax and divided everything he'll come out with just enough to buy a flat. Then what? (I'm kind of thinking out loud here.) He doesn't seem to grasp that the world doesn't give a shit about him. How is he going to pay for food, electricity, council tax, etc? What will he do if the sink leaks or the dishwasher breaks? I don't think he realises how much it costs just to survive. He has no understanding of money. He seems to think he can coast along and everything will work itself out – you know, don't rock the boat.

On the inheritance tax: there might not be much or any to pay. My understanding is that a house left to your children has a substantial exemption from inheritance tax, and if your father's half passed direct to his wife, there may be an additional allowance there as well. If I can stop coughing, I could go and look it up.

If you do have to pay tax, it'll be after quite a hefty allowance. So it might get him a decent flat and a bit of a cushion.

Or, as you say, it might all have to be sold well before he's ready, to pay for care. And that leaves him stranded.

I think the threshold is 500k if it includes your house & it's being passed to your children.

It doesn't solve the issue of what your brother does if there's no or very little estate to inherit, and it wouldn't both provide him with a home and a pension, as far as I can see.

He really does need to think this through and take some action.

Yes, I think you're right, Beergoggles. Plus there might be an extra allowance 'left over' from the father's unused tax threshold, here, from moneysavingexpert:

"Any assets left to your spouse or civil partner will be exempt from inheritance tax. Yet the inheritance-tax related perks for married couples don't end there...
On top of this, your spouse's inheritance tax allowance rises by the percentage of your allowance that you didn't use, meaning together a couple can currently leave £1 million tax-free (2 x £325,000 tax-free allowances + 2 x £175,000 main residence allowances)."

Just a thought, I wonder if brother expects you to support him if the worse happens, or are you worried he’s expecting this? He may even expect to move in with you.

I don't know what became of him. He stopped answering the phone to his siblings. Its a pity they lost the home to the nursing home but I don't have the full facts. I get the vibe they threw him to the wolves.

I would advise you speak to your mother privately about the situation. Just ask her what does the future hold, and how will your brother support himself. Is she an intelligent lady? Would she have thought these things through? Has she a will? Where does she want him to live?

I would advise against selling the family home if he is so vulnerable. Perhaps you can reach a deal with him whereby your half goes to your offspring when he passes away. That way, you're not losing as asset in long run.

Only throwing ideas out there - would you consider moving back to the home when your mother passes, and divide house in 2 so you and brother can live there? You said its a nice house. These things were done in past and people didn't live alone as much, and adult siblings lived together.

Or if he is an easygoing and pleasant guy, could he rent out some rooms and use rent money to subsidise his expenses?

I'm throwing these ideas out there as property has never been so expensive, and hard to buy. Nursing home fees were not so expensive in the past either so vulnerable people are falling through the cracks.

There is a part of me that thinks “oh well, they seem happy enough, maybe it’s best to leave them to it.” My brother is very introverted and seems genuinely happy reading, playing video games, studying Russian, etc. He never showed the slightest interest in a career, and I very much doubt he would be happier working in Tesco.

But I keep coming back to what will happen when my mother dies. Of course, I simply have no idea when that will be. She is a fairly healthy 77-year-old, but anything could happen. Cancer, Parkinson’s, etc, can come right out of the blue. She could live to 90, or die in six months.

It isn’t just money. He is adamant that he doesn’t want to carry on living there after she has gone, but is totally unprepared psychologically and emotionally. A job would get him out of the house. It will give him a foothold in the real world with real people. I don’t think he’ll enjoy it (in fact I’m sure he won’t), but at least he’ll be outside the bubble in which he’s living now. Because the moment my mother dies (or becomes seriously ill) that bubble will burst and he’ll find himself in a world that doesn’t care about him at all. If we sell the house and he comes out with enough to buy a flat, he’s still got to pay bills, buy food, etc. I don’t think he grasps how much it costs simply to survive. Even if my mother makes it to 90 he’ll be a 60-year-old who has never paid National Insurance and never been registered as unfit to work. He’s got so used to my mother paying his way that I think he assumes the government will take over where she left off. But he’ll also be totally alone. It’s going to be one hell of a shock to not only have to leave his childhood home and move into a flat, but to have to find work AND cope with living alone for the first time.