Worklife vs School life - discuss

[HolyGrapefruit]

(This isn't mine, I saw it on Twitter from @ naomicfisher but I thought it was very good:)

Imagine you start a new job and they send a strict dress code, down to the colour of your socks and style of your shoe. They also send you a list of equipment which they say you must have every day. Some of it seems a bit strange - two green pens?- but off you go dutifully to Smiths and equip yourself.

On the first day, you’re lined up with your colleagues and inspected. Anyone whose clothes aren’t exactly according to the dress code is told they’ll have to work an extra half hour. Same for any missing equipment. The penalties add up - wrong colour socks and missing protractor? One hour after work.

You’re a bit concerned at this because you had arranged a lift home and if you have to stay late you’ll miss it. You check your clothes and equipment, all seems okay. You pass the check, but the woman next to you has the wrong shoes. She’s distressed at the news that she’ll be staying late - she had plans later. Tough. She starts worrying about how she’s going to get new shoes to avoid the same tomorrow whilst also staying late at work. You don’t know how to help.

You get into your office and look around at your colleagues, but there’s no time to chat. On the whiteboard is a list of expectations for the day. You must be on task at all times and this will be monitored through your computer. Toilet breaks are limited to particular times and you’ll be queuing because it’s the same time for everyone. Eyes must be kept on your computer and this will be tracked. You must sit facing forwards and not slouch. You must use a regulation ruler whenever you read a document. If you break the rules, you’ll be kept after work the same day.

You’re told that if you get too many ‘after works’ then you’ll spend a day in the Quiet Room where no one will talk to you for the whole day and you can’t eat lunch with your colleagues or go to the toilet more than twice. You start to feel a sense of unease. You’re worried about whether you can comply and what will happen if you start gazing off into space or rocking on your chair.

The office is very quiet. ‘Isn’t it lovely?’ says your manager. ‘People here appreciate our structure and clear boundaries. You’ll do the best work you have ever done here because no time is wasted. We’ve set it up so you don’t have to worry about making decisions, you just do what we say and concentrate on your work’.

You think perhaps this isn’t the right place for you, but they remind you that you’ve signed a five year contract without a get out clause. There are no other options. You are powerless.

What effect would that have on you? Would you be happy and relaxed at work? Would you be motivated and doing your best for those five years? Might you feel anxious and trapped or resentful and angry?

And why would we think it would be any different for our kids?

I get where this is going, but as it was asked as a direct question, I'm happy to answer! I would have covered the dress code and the stationery requirement at the initial interview stage (as I'm sure pupils do when they investigate a school). If I was that put out about the uniform rules, I'd have walked away at that stage (as prospective pupils can do too). I would never send my DD to a school that had loo breaks at a specific time (and nor would I take a job where this was the case). Bodily functions happen. Women and girls have periods etc that can't alsways be dealt with at pre determined break times.

Add the threat of bullying, being told you’re fat or ugly and being the victim of orwitnessing physical assaults that no one takes seriously and no one gets punished for. It’s a dog eat dog world.

I saw this today and was thinking of starting a thread about it!!

So many schools are going down this route and then we wonder why students are disengaged and play up and why teaching has become so horrific.

Anything like this is rather silly, in a way that tries to manipulate readers in a specific, very obvious way. Anyone who agrees with whatever it is trying to manipulate thinks it's brilliant and persuasive; it is neither.

What about:
Imagine you arrive at work wanting to work hard and do your best and find there's a group of people in every room that are messing about and making it hard to concentrate. Your supervisor spends so long trying to get them to get on that they don't have time to answer your one question so you don't manage to complete the task. You complain and your supervisor says that he's been told that workers here are free spirits so should work however they want to....

Is this really what it's like?

Scottish schools aren't like this.

That's awful.

my children's school is not like this and we specifically discounted the local schools that are.

My child's school isnt like this but it's a grammar school and individual teachers can teach to their own style.

However a great many schools ARE like this and it's becoming more commercially I think.

If you look up SLANT this is to do with tracking the teacher at all times and sitting a certain way. Schools give behaviour points if this isn't the case.

Schools give behaviour points (or detentions) commonly for not having the right equipment down to the right colour pens.

Some schools do this for talking in the corridor or for being a few minutes late.

There are many "no excuses" schools so even if you're late because your mum was illl/your dad is in hospital/your car broke down it doesn't "count" the rule is applied across th board.

I'm also seeing it unfairly discriminating against those with adhd or organisational problems that would have been supported before (hence also perception of rise of send.).

All of this leads to many anxious kids. Rise of mental health issues...

If you Google strict schools news there's loads of these type of. stories
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-67139220.amp

The initial page OPS story was takennfrom has talked about kids being put in isolation for having the wrong shoes despite parents needing some time to get to the shop to get new ones. I've come across this in parent groups I've worked with too.

Its not across the board in English schools at all but it's certainly becoming more common and most schools in my area have an element of this. Many MAT/accadamies use standardised behaviour policies such as these.

Yes the story isn't 100% accurate but it's not surprising so many kids are struggling under these conditions. Never mind any that are neurodiverse/anxious /home difficulties/etc.

would never send my DD to a school that had loo breaks at a specific time

Good luck with that, it's a basic rule in most schools to prevent total chaos.

Ok, fancy pants. Maybe you went around sampling high schools when you were 11 and judging them based on their uniform policy and ‘walking away’ if you didn’t like what you saw, but the vast majority of children, particularly from low income backgrounds have very limited options when it comes to choice of high school. You go to the one you’re in the catchment area for, and can’t just ‘walk’ if you don’t like the uniform policy 😂

I'm a teacher and happen not to be in favour of uniform at all, especially draconian and petty rules about uniform.

However, I do find the school life / work life comparison pretty irritating tbh. When I read comments like this, I just think "Right. Go and try managing large groups of children and teenagers (many of whom would not choose to be in school and have absolutely no interest in cooperating) in the same way you'd manage teams of adult employees then. Good luck."

And in case anyone fancies suggesting that kids behave badly because rules are harsh and lessons aren’t engaging enough... No. The rules are harsh because kids behave badly. And nobody can consistently make physics lessons as attractive to 14 year-olds as Tik Tok. Parents have enough trouble getting their own dc off consoles and social media to go out and do something fun. Try it with 30.

Exactly.

I am also a teacher, of 17 years
Experience in the state sector.

If we say you can go to the toilet whenever you like, then lessons would be interrupted continuously with a constant flow of students to and from the toilets. Some would take forever and time would be spent locating them and sending the back to lessons. It is also a safeguarding issue to have students out of lessons without knowing exactly where they are, which becomes difficult to manage in a free for all toilet access situation. Toilets are problematic as they are by necessity unsupervised and things like vaping and internal truancy can occur in toilets. During social times we have a member of staff on duty outside but this can't be the case in lesson times.

I cannot go to the toilet whenever I like when I am teaching. I've coped fine for 17 years including during two pregnancies, going at lunch and breaks. In an emergency situation I might have had to ask another teacher for help to supervise my students while I went. This has maybe happened twice as far as I can remember. Obviously reasonable adjustments would be made for someone who could not manage this for medical reasons.

Ime teaches are pretty good at using their discretion and judgement to allow a child to go who needs to, and if a child has a medical condition they get a toilet pass. But a free for all go whether you like approach is not practical and anyone who has any experience in schools whatsoever knows this.

Your colleagues are less likely to meet up in the toilets for a vape/smoke they are less likely to be in there self harming or ODing and less likely to be sexually assaulting their work mates or just vandalising them so others can't use them. These things all happen in school toilets not to mention the disruption that going to the toilet creates, each student that goes misses a least 10 mins and that could easily be for every lesson of the day. No, it's not ideal how many schools manage them but there really isn't another way right now. Students with medical needs get a toilet pass and do have access to specific toilets.

I don't agree with strict school uniform, but children often come to school on non uniform days with completely inappropriate clothing for practical subjects like technology and science where not wearing sturdy shoes or having skin exposed in ripped jeans / crop tops is a risk.

What a load of cock.

Yes you can make your kids hate school and tell them all the rules are like living in a communist country. Or you can choose not to do that, buy them two green pens and encourage them to enjoy learning each day because a repetitive job afterwards is much more boring with longer days and fewer holidays.

It's not all schools either, two teens in secondary, with uniform requirements and pen requests and I have never come across a day or attitude or anything else mentioned.

Imagine getting 30 or even 20 disengaged teenagers talking, on their phones, rocking in chairs, going out for toilet breaks, staring into space to read through never mind answer a question on Macbeth?
.

There’s another thread where the majority support uniforms.

I agree with the recent absurdly strict toilet rules that seem to be common but kids will generally only follow rules if it’s the same for everyone. If Ben can walk in 5 minutes late or Beth can chat, why can’t everybody else do it and it eventually becomes chaos.

What is the solution to dealing with persistent low level disruption ? Some parents dgaf about their child’s bad behaviour and forbid the school from imposing punishments like detentions and there’s no alternative provision for kids who can’t cope in the classroom. Suspensions are discouraged (OFSTED) leaving the rest of the class at the mercy of children who should be elsewhere.

The pen thing is a red herring. I've 'lent' over 300 (boxes of 50, so I know for sure) pens so far this year, and there are no more in the stationery cupboard. They don't come back, they are taken apart by students or chewed, and with no pen, you cannot do your work, so, draconian or not, I now expect each kid to have a pen and if not, I give a behaviour point. Equipment lists are clear and sent out well in advance of starting school.

Sorry but I'm not spending my salary buying biros because Jimmy thinks it infringes his right to self expression to come to school ready to complete his work. If I went to work without my lessons planned, could I get another teacher to do my work for me because I can't be arsed? Nope.

Imagine a workplace like this…

You arrive 10 mins late because you CBA, some jumped up office worker reprimands you so you roll your eyes (at best) or tell her to ‘get fucked’ at worst. You go straight to the loos, thankfully your colleagues parents have complained enough so they’re open all the time with no one to staff them.

In the loos there are loads of colleagues vaping, pissing about on the phone, eating and vandalising. Some younger colleagues come in and get bullied and sanitary towels thrown at them. You don’t want to join in that day so go to the loo, peer up and see you’re being filmed. You kick off at your colleagues for another 10 mins.

You exit and make your way to your workplace. When you get there your ‘boss’ has been replaced by a temp who is struggling to communicate. Your colleagues are chatting loudly (at best) some are throwing things, crawling under desk, taking the mock out of each other.

You try and get on with your work and a colleague takes your pen and launches it out of the window. You get up to demand you want it back and shout angrily! The boss reprimands you and says you need to stay after work! You go mad and blame it on one of the other 32 colleagues in the room! How could your temporary boss not know that! You have to shout and swear to get your point across. Your boss then has you removed.

Luckily you can phone your parents outside the room and get them on side quickly. They might even suggest you’d be better off in a calm and safe ‘draconian’ workplace. Luckily you have a choice.

Next the OP will be comparing apples to oranges.

As an adult I am expected to follow the uniform (at some previous jobs) or dress code. If I wasn't dressed appropriately I would be told not to return in the wrong clothes.
Some jobs I've done involve me having particular equipment at a considerably higher cost than stationary and a calculator (often also expected to have that, and at least always writing materials)
Often worked in places I was lucky to get a lunch break, and often unable to use the toilet (at times lone working). Thankfully, just like my school child, I was able to keep my water bottle with me so wasn't dehydrated.
If I didn't follow the company guidelines around behaviour and appearance I would expect to be put on 'back of house' duties or sent home to WFH that day depending on the job. For behaviour it would be much quicker to fire me than permanently exclude a child, especially while on probation. If I walked out to use the toilet that would possibly be gross misconduct (if I was lone working) or definitely a disciplinary action of some kind. In other roles it would have been unprofessional but more leeway, I might get two toilet breaks in those roles. I think the people that think these are unusual rules don't work in the kind of jobs where these rules do apply like care work, nursing, personal services, retail etc.

Excellent.

I think I'd might last a few days at the most and then I would just start skipping. I would go elsewhere for the day, where there would be at least a toilet. I've always had a week bladder so I am sure that in those days I was still going I probalby would have had a meltdown at least once a day.

Sounds like torture and I've had jobs that were a little like that (though not as extreme). I ended up rage-quitting.

Same coin, different side, equally helish.

I wonder why I cba in either scenario?

I take it you have never worked in the military or the Police OP?!

People complain about all of this nonsense failing to forget only a generation or two ago we were physically assaulting children in the name of discipline. Yet claim modern schools are draconian. 🙄

Same coin, different side, equally helish.

Yes, both are bad because they are both examples of using a management style that is inappropriate for the setting and for the people being managed.

Also, it's amazing how much parents' view of what's draconian varies according to whether the rules and sanctions are being applied to their own child or other people's children.

I’m not going to express an opinion on whether rules in schools should be less or more “draconian” and whether enforcing them works or not.

I do have to say, however, that the dresscode at my workplace specifies colour, sleeve length, shoe style, tight density and hair accessory shades. There is also disciplinary action for not complying with it. So in this case, would the comparison be acceptable?

There are ways to enforce rules, of course. There is also a need to teach the younger generations that certain places impose certain rules, and you have to comply. And I say that as someone who didn’t grow up in a country with uniforms, and couldn’t care less about how many pens of a certain colour a student carries to school.