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Worklife vs School life - discuss

70 replies

HolyGrapefruit · 22/05/2024 13:55

(This isn't mine, I saw it on Twitter from @ naomicfisher but I thought it was very good:)

Imagine you start a new job and they send a strict dress code, down to the colour of your socks and style of your shoe. They also send you a list of equipment which they say you must have every day. Some of it seems a bit strange - two green pens?- but off you go dutifully to Smiths and equip yourself.

On the first day, you’re lined up with your colleagues and inspected. Anyone whose clothes aren’t exactly according to the dress code is told they’ll have to work an extra half hour. Same for any missing equipment. The penalties add up - wrong colour socks and missing protractor? One hour after work.

You’re a bit concerned at this because you had arranged a lift home and if you have to stay late you’ll miss it. You check your clothes and equipment, all seems okay. You pass the check, but the woman next to you has the wrong shoes. She’s distressed at the news that she’ll be staying late - she had plans later. Tough. She starts worrying about how she’s going to get new shoes to avoid the same tomorrow whilst also staying late at work. You don’t know how to help.

You get into your office and look around at your colleagues, but there’s no time to chat. On the whiteboard is a list of expectations for the day. You must be on task at all times and this will be monitored through your computer. Toilet breaks are limited to particular times and you’ll be queuing because it’s the same time for everyone. Eyes must be kept on your computer and this will be tracked. You must sit facing forwards and not slouch. You must use a regulation ruler whenever you read a document. If you break the rules, you’ll be kept after work the same day.

You’re told that if you get too many ‘after works’ then you’ll spend a day in the Quiet Room where no one will talk to you for the whole day and you can’t eat lunch with your colleagues or go to the toilet more than twice. You start to feel a sense of unease. You’re worried about whether you can comply and what will happen if you start gazing off into space or rocking on your chair.

The office is very quiet. ‘Isn’t it lovely?’ says your manager. ‘People here appreciate our structure and clear boundaries. You’ll do the best work you have ever done here because no time is wasted. We’ve set it up so you don’t have to worry about making decisions, you just do what we say and concentrate on your work’.

You think perhaps this isn’t the right place for you, but they remind you that you’ve signed a five year contract without a get out clause. There are no other options. You are powerless.

What effect would that have on you? Would you be happy and relaxed at work? Would you be motivated and doing your best for those five years? Might you feel anxious and trapped or resentful and angry?

And why would we think it would be any different for our kids?

OP posts:
OhHelloMiss · 22/05/2024 20:05

'Discuss'?

JaffavsCookie · 22/05/2024 20:18

I know the original poster thinks they are very clever and amazing but they clearly have no fucking idea what life is like in secondary schools.
A pen is a basic requirement, like a pp i have lost count of how many pens i have lent kids, never get them returned or they destroy them. You offer them a pencil and they sneer at you.
Toilet time in lessons is something the general public love to get het up about but we cannot keep your kids safe if we let them wander around the school unsupervised during lessons.
Toilets at these times, even in decent schools are used for vaping, drug dealing and bullying, with a side order of sex. Teachers can’t go to the loo either during lessons, nor can thousands of workers in many different jobs, factories, shop workers, surgeons - they all get on with it, and of course staff are sympathetic to those who clearly need to go.
TLDR please try to support your kids school, I have honestly never come across a school where the ethos was to beat kids down, we are genuinely about helping, supporting and growing them.

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 22/05/2024 20:29

The post in the OP is infantile and written by someone with limited work experience. I’m a teacher now but I’ve had quite a few jobs. Like others I’ve had jobs with really strict (much stricter than my current school) uniform requirements which had financial penalties attached to them.

I’ve had a jobs where I had to take specific loo breaks (my current teaching role included).

And every single workplace had a strict code of conduct around things like swearing, punctuality and attendance. Which is entirely reasonable.

Kids never believe me that people are sacked for bad punctuality and attendance. They seem to think, as do some of their parents, that this some set of weird rules we’ve made up for them.

CatamaranViper · 22/05/2024 20:46

I don't agree with mega strict uniform. A school jumper, polo/shirt, black skirt, trousers or shorts. Black shoes. No need to police socks or bags etc.

I do agree with the toilet thing. I worked in hospitality for years and like hell could I go to the toilet whenever I wanted. I had to wait until appropriate times. It's not just hospitality where this is a thing. Many people who work customer facing can't just up and go to the loo whenever they want. Learning that you do need to do some forward planning is important!

binkybinkybinkbink · 22/05/2024 20:51

@chosenone nailed it.

OriginalUsername2 · 22/05/2024 21:07

It’s crap. Good idea, terrible execution.

WhatDoIDoPeople · 22/05/2024 21:20

People have been completely indoctrinated when we’re referring to the option to go to the toilet when needed as a ‘free for all’.

As an adult, I can choose my work location and hours, can wear whatever I choose and eat/drink/go to the loo when I want. The idea of only being allowed to have a drink within specific timeframes or needing to plan ahead for loo breaks would not be something I would put up with for long.

Don’t get me started on the expectation for children to use communal changing areas for sports. So much push back from my sons primary when I excused him from school swimming lessons on the basis that he didn’t want to change communally. As he has private swimming lessons (with individual changing cubicles), I saw no reason to force him to do something that clearly made him uncomfortable.

thevegetablesoup · 22/05/2024 21:22

@WhatDoIDoPeople well that's nice for you but like a lot of people have said, many workplaces do have strict rules in place for dress code and toilet use.

thevegetablesoup · 22/05/2024 21:24

Self harming in toilets is another issue we have to deal with frequently so forgive us if we are concerned about unlimited toilet access.

Marynotsocontrary · 22/05/2024 21:27

Cosycover · 22/05/2024 14:17

Is this really what it's like?

Scottish schools aren't like this.

That's awful.

Not my experience of the local schools either.

DaisyHaites · 22/05/2024 21:30

You talk from a place of privilege that you think this is a totally absurd work environment.

I have family members who work in a place where there is a uniform, that is checked by the manager when they walk in, and you’ll be sent home unpaid if you’re not adhering to the uniform rules. You also need to take your tools to do the job. No tools, no work, you’re back home with no pay. Or you come back to work and stay late to make up the hours. And you can’t use customers toilets when out. You have to wait until you have a break and then travel to somewhere with a toilet. This is the case on a lot of factory lines.

While some schools can be draconian, we are teaching these kids how to operate in our society. Once they’ve learnt that, they can then demonstrate aspects of this in their jobs.

As a rule follower, I’m happy to consider the alternatives only if it doesn’t infringe on the ability of those who can follow the rules to engage, learn and be taught without disruption.

Xyz1234567 · 22/05/2024 21:37

What op has written is utter, utter tripe.
Pupils are not responsible adults, they are children. It is absolutely crap parents with this kind of mentality that raise feral brats who make the lives of teachers and those kids that want to get an education, a bloody nightmare.

C152 · 22/05/2024 22:05

That sounds like life at KPMG!

WhosAfraidOfVirginalWolves · 22/05/2024 22:30

I probably huffed and puffed about having to wait to use the loo (for a grand total of 2 hours if you had a double lesson!!!) when I was a teenager. And it was embarrassing having to give your teacher THAT LOOK when you were on your period and had to be excused right away so that you didn't bleed through your clothes.

And then when I was 18 I was working in a care home and was on my own looking after a non verbal, severely disabled, violent and self injurious woman in her separate flat because she was unsafe to be around other residents. And I had no break over 12 hours because we were chronically understaffed and she would only work with specific people anyway. Then I did end up bleeding through my clothes (and eventually had to take the quickest wee of my life in her toilet) because I couldn't leave her unattended.

That might have been an especially bad day, but most of them included my being spat at, kicked, punched etc while you tried to look after people. Obviously, this is not ideal and if it had been properly funded/staffed/managed then it would have been a slightly better working environment. But it still would never have been non- stressful or remotely conducive to good mental health, because of the nature of the work itself.

Adolescents might get a pass for being a bit whiny and self pitying when they have to do something they don't want. But there's an astonishing number of adults who apparently don't realise that not every job can be personally fulfilling and done from behind a laptop screen, and they are indulging this mindset.

There's a lot of dirty work which needs doing, and really we need people to do it who don't consider themselves traumatised from a few years of having to ask to use the toilet and bring a pen to lessons.

Aramiss · 22/05/2024 22:41

What a load of rubbish.

Why are you comparing a group of teenagers to a group of responsible adults?

Schools need to be stricter than the workplace, because kids misbehave more and don't fully understand the long-term consequences of their actions.

SwordToFlamethrower · 22/05/2024 22:44

Academies are like this 100%

They are hell holes.

camelfinger · 22/05/2024 22:58

Sounds like a set of clear rules that are published in advance and applied equally. People always push the boundaries thinking they need special treatment so this is why you end up with these sorts of things in place. Some things are annoying, you just have to learn to deal with a bit of strife.

happybluefern · 22/05/2024 22:58

Tbf SLANT is not something most adults would put up with for 6 hours a day. There are certainly Jobs with uniforms and limited toilet breaks but I’ve probably never had a job where I couldn’t have a bit of chat or make a remark to a colleague of something funny happened etc. I’ve heard call centres can be super strict like that but also the people I know who worked in them left pretty quickly…

I used to be a teacher and feel quite conflicted about behaviour management. Have to say I’ve needed worked anywhere where there was a chronic problem with drug dealing and oral sex in the toilets, I can believe it happens but I’m not convinced it’s going on in every school in the country.

Justrolledmyeyesoutloud · 22/05/2024 23:10

Xyz1234567 · 22/05/2024 21:37

What op has written is utter, utter tripe.
Pupils are not responsible adults, they are children. It is absolutely crap parents with this kind of mentality that raise feral brats who make the lives of teachers and those kids that want to get an education, a bloody nightmare.

Yep and the cycle continues. Home schook them if you don't think the rules apply to you!

Nat6999 · 23/05/2024 00:01

DaisyHaites · 22/05/2024 21:30

You talk from a place of privilege that you think this is a totally absurd work environment.

I have family members who work in a place where there is a uniform, that is checked by the manager when they walk in, and you’ll be sent home unpaid if you’re not adhering to the uniform rules. You also need to take your tools to do the job. No tools, no work, you’re back home with no pay. Or you come back to work and stay late to make up the hours. And you can’t use customers toilets when out. You have to wait until you have a break and then travel to somewhere with a toilet. This is the case on a lot of factory lines.

While some schools can be draconian, we are teaching these kids how to operate in our society. Once they’ve learnt that, they can then demonstrate aspects of this in their jobs.

As a rule follower, I’m happy to consider the alternatives only if it doesn’t infringe on the ability of those who can follow the rules to engage, learn and be taught without disruption.

Your family member has a choice, they can choose to not work there, most kids have to go to the school they are sent to, the choice thing is a joke because if you put down schools out of catchment you have no chance of getting in. When I applied for ds we didn't want the local school but there is only one school in our catchment area, the schools we would have liked were massively oversubscribed & had we not put the local school he would most likely been sent to a failing school 3 miles away that nobody wants. The biggest failing is that most secondary schools are just too big, at least 1500 pupils, it is a one size fits all situation, some children thrive at the big schools but a lot of children just can't cope, we need some smaller secondary schools, maybe no more than a 3 form entry per year instead of the 10 form entry there is now.

ThrallsWife · 23/05/2024 05:54

My boss also wouldn't send me to the naughty step or ground me for days or take my phone off me like my mum - does that mean we should abandon rules and discipline for children alltogether?

But you know what, my boss doesn't have to discipline me, because, by the time I turned into an adult, I knew that inappropriate attire, attitude to work and behaviour had consequences and so I have an intrinsic desire to to what is required of me because it was a habit I developed through rules at home and at school.

My boss also, at large, doesn't need to spend a year collecting paperwork of me taking the absolute piss to prove I should be fired, only to then have the government overturn their decision and force them to take me back on anyway.

If I turn up in inappropriate attire, I get sent home (on no pay for that time).

There is a 3 strikes and you're on formal attendance report if you don't turn up (and that's with reason - "truancy" at work would be gross misconduct and a reason to be fired).

If I swear at my boss (or at all at work) I am disciplined, a repeat and I'm fired.

If I turn up without being prepared for work with everything I need, I suffer direct consequences (in this case, the kids running wild - I will get disciplined/ fired if I make a habit out of not turning up prepared as it shows during work scrutiny).

Oh, and my contract also specifies not only how I have to behave in work, but extends this to my conduct outside of my workplace.

OP, get real.

SpringerFall · 23/05/2024 06:05

GeneralMusings · 22/05/2024 14:15

I saw this today and was thinking of starting a thread about it!!

So many schools are going down this route and then we wonder why students are disengaged and play up and why teaching has become so horrific.

Maybe schools are going down this route because on unruliness, back chatting, fights, rudeness, anti-social behaviour and as also from the students, plus 'it is not my child they never play up it is someone else's'

Zwicky · 23/05/2024 07:29

Tbh I think kids are a lot better off when it is recognised that they are kids, not adults, and the adults are in charge will take responsibility and look after them carefully and provide appropriate boundaries and structure that allow them to grow. Part of that looking after means having standards and expectations that are clear, reasonable and achievable. Wearing the right clothes, having the right equipment and turning up on time and engaging are all clear, reasonable, and achievable. There are always going to be people who find it harder than others (I have adhd and am appalling at organisation and timekeeping - I have to work really hard at it to get to the level of “poor” whereas other people can just do it with no real problem) but the vast majority can do it, even if it’s an effort. Some kids don’t have an adult in their lives who gives a single fuck if they’ve got a pencil at all, let alone a pencil case with all the things they need. This isn’t a good thing. It’s not lovely and kind to have such low expectations for children that you don’t think they should bring a pen to school or engage with their lessons or they should be allowed to wander in and out of class when they want, or have their lessons interrupted by bad behaviour. It will be interesting to see if there are any differences in outcomes between children educated in a Michaela style, and a similar cohort in a more traditional school. Not just in terms of exam passes, but future earnings, success in relationships and family life, ambition, levels of criminality, mental wellness, happiness, and failure to launch etc.

There are loads of things I think are slightly bonkers about Michaela, and I don’t think I’d choose it, but you can’t fault the ambition that they have for their children, and you can’t argue with their progress 8. I don’t necessarily agree with the silent corridors (but I didn’t go to a school that had issues with bad behaviour in corridors. If I had I may feel differently), their lunchtimes seem ott - very structured with little time for “hanging around” which is so important, and I’m not convinced about not being allowed to go to the loo but I’ve not seen a school yet that manages the disruption of multiple loo visits during lessons well. There are lots of jobs where it’s difficult to go to the loo whenever you fancy. Teaching, for example. Retail and hospitality and care work you will have to wait until an appropriate break. I’ve seen a surgeon bleed all the way down her legs and into her clogs before because she couldn’t just nip off at a moments notice. I’m not saying it’s fine and dandy, and a geography lesson is not surgery, but in reality disruption to lessons for loo breaks is, in some schools, a problem that needs tackling rigorously. If you are in a school with a 5x1 hour lesson structure it’s possible to “but, miss, I’m on my period” or “but, miss, I’m desperate” 5 times a day and skive a quarter of the teaching time in a day. Nobody would get away with that at work.

I don’t know why every September we have sad faced children in newspapers displaying their non uniform items they’ve got for school - schools give very clear guidance for uniform. Nobody has to be worrying about having to buy new shoes after “work”. If the uniform policy says “no trainers” and you turn up in trainers then expect to be pulled up on it. My work policy is closed toe, flat, sturdy, black, leather shoes (vegan “leather” acceptable). I don’t buy trainers or ballet flats of heels and then get “anxious” about it.

Not spelling out the expectations and then punishing for not meeting them is a different thing altogether, and not what is being described here. If you tell children to wear “black shoes” and bring “a pencil case” then you shouldn’t punish them for turning up in black trainers and only a blue pen in a pencil case. You need to be very explicit about the rules and the consequences. Consistency is really important to children. I imagine that there are schools going down this route but with poor execution, such as an afterschool for not having a 4H pencil when nobody has ever mentioned having a 4H pencil ever in all of your life, or the wrong skirt or the wrong shoes when the policy doesn’t say what that is, and that will be very hard on children. They need to know where they stand and what, very exactly, is expected of them.

One key difference between work and school is in the workplace, if you a persistently late, refuse to go to meetings or walk out of them, push your colleagues over in the corridors, vandalise the toilets, don’t do your work, refuse to dress appropriately, tell your manager to fuck themselves etc then you will be sacked. It may take some time but it will happen. “Sacking” children isn’t the same at all because they are children. We, as adults, have a responsibility towards them. We can’t just have security escort them off site and wash our hands of them. They have to go somewhere. They either see out their time in their current school, still not engaging, still not bringing the correct equipment, still fucking off to the toilet for 20 mins of every lesson, still not handing in homework etc. or they go to another school, or a referral unit or homeschooling, where they will repeat the same tedious steps and still nobody has any expectations on them do do basic shit like show up, with a pen. It’s a gross failure, and, in general, it’s our most vulnerable children who we fail the most.

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 23/05/2024 07:29

Schools end up down this route because of lack of good parenting.

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 23/05/2024 07:32

A hero post by @SpringerFall 👏🏻

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