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So if teachers are leaving in droves

577 replies

BlastedPimples · 19/05/2024 18:25

and recruitment is very low, what is going to happen? It can't continue like this surely and education levels will suffer enormously.

Massive classes for the teachers that remain?

Huge recruitment drive to entice more people into the profession?

Entice teachers out of retirement?

Recruitment from abroad?

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 20/05/2024 17:34

They used to love nothing more than bragging about themselves , and belittling and talking down to other teachers.

You're talking about how many masters you've got while referring to other teachers as 'love'?

Hmm.

Teachers who taught online in the pandemic are perfectly placed to comment on the feasibility of large-scale online learning. It's basically dead in the water.

Carly944 · 20/05/2024 17:37

OutOfTheHouse · 20/05/2024 17:31

You are being patronising suggesting that those of us with experience don’t have the first idea about emerging technologies. I’m suggesting that perhaps we have experienced situations that you might not have considered.

Well im not aiming to patronise you personally.

My overall comment is a general one.

I think that a lot of the school system needs to be improved, modernised and upgraded. For both students and teachers.

The government are just not making that a priority right now

Carly944 · 20/05/2024 17:41

noblegiraffe · 20/05/2024 17:34

They used to love nothing more than bragging about themselves , and belittling and talking down to other teachers.

You're talking about how many masters you've got while referring to other teachers as 'love'?

Hmm.

Teachers who taught online in the pandemic are perfectly placed to comment on the feasibility of large-scale online learning. It's basically dead in the water.

I didnt actually talk about how many Master's degrees that I have.

I was quoting another teacher in the example that I used.

If you'd like to back and read it again.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

Iwasafool · 20/05/2024 17:41

80smonster · 20/05/2024 17:11

I think you have misunderstood me, I was referring to this podcast: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/23/podcasts/nice-white-parents-serial.html
I am not saying that only white parents are nice, far from it, just that the social construct you are describing wouldn’t necessarily have the desired outcome that has been widely pitched by the Labour party. In previous schools where socially demographically opposed children have attended, the effect wasn’t that the general level of education was raised, it was that the richer parents fundraised various programmes like gifted and talented classes (which their children were beneficiaries of), which meant it actually removed funding from less educationally able children. I’m the child of immigrant grandparents, so please do not misconstrue what is being said.

So were the children of the richer parents the only ones who got into the gifted and talented programmes? It is a big assumption to make in my opinion and if these programmes are funded by all the fund raising these richer parents do why are funds being removed? Surely there are more funds.

amccabe15 · 20/05/2024 17:47

They’re already recruiting abroad.

noblegiraffe · 20/05/2024 17:47

Carly944 · 20/05/2024 17:41

I didnt actually talk about how many Master's degrees that I have.

I was quoting another teacher in the example that I used.

If you'd like to back and read it again.

You're meant to close your quote marks when you have finished quoting the person so that it is clear which bit is being quoted and which bit is your own remark.

You seem remarkably blind to the fact that your online school gig is incredibly limited in who it serves, and that matters.

Labraradabrador · 20/05/2024 17:47

Iwasafool · 20/05/2024 16:46

Are you saying children with "nice white parents" are going to be clever and higher achievers than kids with what "not nice not white parents." I'm first generation born in Britain, my husband wasn't even born here. Our parents left school at 14. I find what you say offensive. If those "nice white parents" get classes for gifted pupils I assume any bright kid gets access to them and other children will benefit from smaller groups.

I went to an innercity primary in the 50s/60s and I can assure you the mainly immigrant mothers were ferocious in supporting the school and pushing their kids. As I said earlier I was in a class of 48 and 50% went to grammar school, a higher pass rate than the private school a ten minute walk away.

It is literally the title of the podcast series, not the posters own words, and I am not sure you can comment on the offensiveness of it without actually listening to it, or at least reading a bit more about it. It is an excellent, and very well regarded (award winning) podcast by professional investigative journalists and this one was done in collab with the NY Times. They cover many topics, but this particular one looked at the complex interplay of racial and economic integration/ segregation in US public schools. Not all of the issues will be directly relevant to the UK, but it does tackle the common assertion that if more wealthy, well educated and aspirational parents were in state schools then those schools would miraculously improve. Strongly recommend it for anyone interested in the topic.

noblegiraffe · 20/05/2024 17:48

amccabe15 · 20/05/2024 17:47

They’re already recruiting abroad.

Except the relocation scheme is being closed because the DfE can't afford it.

80smonster · 20/05/2024 17:51

Iwasafool · 20/05/2024 17:41

So were the children of the richer parents the only ones who got into the gifted and talented programmes? It is a big assumption to make in my opinion and if these programmes are funded by all the fund raising these richer parents do why are funds being removed? Surely there are more funds.

Not the only ones, but they were the majority. It also meant the school allocated funds and human resources to delivering these prestige projects, which in turn saw other opportunities being taken from children from less advantaged backgrounds. I’m not saying this to disbelieve your point of view, more that the research we currently have hasn’t shown what Labour is outlining to be true.

Carly944 · 20/05/2024 17:51

amccabe15 · 20/05/2024 17:47

They’re already recruiting abroad.

Yeah a lot of my friends have gone to teach abroad. They're all really happy. It's a great opportunity.

Carly944 · 20/05/2024 17:55

noblegiraffe · 20/05/2024 17:47

You're meant to close your quote marks when you have finished quoting the person so that it is clear which bit is being quoted and which bit is your own remark.

You seem remarkably blind to the fact that your online school gig is incredibly limited in who it serves, and that matters.

I'm a bit surprised - that me saying that the school system could do with a lot of improvements, is resulting in me getting abuse from you.

Why exactly? A lot of people on here are saying that the school system needs to change.

So what's your deal? Also instead of having digs at me, Why don't you state your own thoughts?

Do you think the school system should stay as it is?

Labraradabrador · 20/05/2024 17:58

Iwasafool · 20/05/2024 17:41

So were the children of the richer parents the only ones who got into the gifted and talented programmes? It is a big assumption to make in my opinion and if these programmes are funded by all the fund raising these richer parents do why are funds being removed? Surely there are more funds.

Gifted and talented programmes in the US (not sure if they exist in the UK?) are almost always disproportionately white upper middle class and rarely reflect the economic and racial make-up of the school. Selection for G&T programmes is often based on how they perform in class in early years (which is more a reflection of family life and early childhood education/enrichment) as well as tests that a motivated parent can prep their child for, it isn’t really a reflection of the child’s intellectual ability. G&T programmes thus end up becoming a segregated enclave within an otherwise diverse school.

isthesolution · 20/05/2024 18:00

It will become more like university lectures with large numbers of pupils being taught together.

My DDs school are just given worksheets to read and answer questions in science because there aren't enough teachers. Supply cover supervisors sit with them; most have very little knowledge of science and others struggle with communication due to not speaking fluent English so pupils cant ask for help from anyone.

it doesnt matter what we, as parents, say - they cant magic teachers.

Teachers are leaving by their thousands - it's really scary.

Elendel · 20/05/2024 18:01

Why don't the Government employ a set of Teachers, who are the Creme de la creme in their field, and task them with writing all lesson content, for all pupils, for the whole of their primary education? These could be all cross checked to make sure they are perfect. Then upload them to a central library, that all teachers can access and download. That way we would know that we are teaching the right thing in the right way, and that every school is teaching the same verified content, AND teachers would not have to write any content, just familiarise themselves with the lesson before teaching, thus meaning they can actually have a life!

Because each class is different. What works for one class does not work for another, so while the content is the same, you will have to adapt activities to the nth degree to account for the level of energy, understanding and engagement of the students. One class loves football while another much prefers basketball.

Because each classroom is different. I teach in a classroom where I have a whiteboard which is at best a screen (which I can write on with my pen), while other colleagues in the building have a projector on a white screen they musn't write on, ever, while others, again, have a fully finctioning interactive whiteboard that does all sorts of funky stuff I can only dream of employing. We have a computer suite where two students have to share a cumputer running windows 2016, another where students are using MACbooks and another where each kid has access to office 365 fully accessible.

Because each school is different. Not every school buys into the same resources, not every school can (hell, they can't even patch of their roofs). We'd have to build standard schools with standard resources from scratch. I have worked in 10 different schools in my practical subject and have had to adjust practical lessons almost every time because equipment wasn't available that I'd used before, or some was broken, or they used something else instead. Far too expensive to standardise all that and by the time you have, the curriculum will have moved on again.

Because every area is different. You absolutely cannot teach the same content in the same way in an inncer city school as you can on the countryside. Priorities are completely different, as are life experiences. I can use the example of York dungeon in York, but talking about it in Plymouth would be dry and unrelatable. Country kids may be far more invested in learning about farming while those in inner cities would look at you like a piece of toast if you tried approaching it the same way.

So you have core content (a National Curriculum, say) and allow schools to adapt as needed.

Doubledenim305 · 20/05/2024 18:02

CoffeeAndPeanuts · 19/05/2024 18:36

We are getting a few new teachers after half term, all from South Africa. Things must be very bad there to entice them to come here!

I've spoken to a few at school recently...pupils and staff. They are leaving for their kids education. Apparently in south Africa u need to be from a disadvantaged or minority group to get into uni. Children from white / middle class / educated backgrounds will not get access to a decent university.
That's what I have heard. I'm willing to be corrected if anyone knows better. But I was shocked 😲

Notellinganyone · 20/05/2024 18:04

pollyglot · 20/05/2024 07:51

noblegiraffe · Today 07:34
A shit teacher with a bank of resources is still a shit teacher.

As a maths teacher, there are tonnes of free resources out there, PowerPoints, worksheets and so on, e.g. Dr Frost, Corbettmaths. Schools also buy in maths resources like mathswatch, Sparx, Mathspad, Goteachmaths. Maths teachers have to do very little planning or even marking.

I've seen perfectly good PowerPoints delivered absolutely terribly leaving kids without a clue as to what is going on.

The idea that all we need to solve the problem is a set of centralised resources and some people to 'deliver' it is just wrong.

I could not agree more, especially about the centralised resources and the "delivering". How can people be so ignorant and so lacking in imagination? A brilliant teacher is a "presence". S/he is a force of nature in the room. The sheer energy and enthusiasm of a brilliant teacher inspires learning, especially when s/he has instinctively identified the kids who need particular approaches. I remember many a parent at p/t meetings saying, with reference to a report I had written "How on earth can you know my child so well? You have summed him up perfectly." The knack is in LISTENING to kids. Not just hearing what their answer is.

Totally agree. I absolutely can’t use other people’s resources. My Dept share ideas a lot but we are all passionate readers with our own take on texts. This is a core skill, I have an English Degree and this is what I’m good at. I’d give up if I was told what texts to teach and given set resources and PowerPoint slides. It’s killing the subject, deskilling teachers and putting students off literature.

80smonster · 20/05/2024 18:06

Labraradabrador · 20/05/2024 17:58

Gifted and talented programmes in the US (not sure if they exist in the UK?) are almost always disproportionately white upper middle class and rarely reflect the economic and racial make-up of the school. Selection for G&T programmes is often based on how they perform in class in early years (which is more a reflection of family life and early childhood education/enrichment) as well as tests that a motivated parent can prep their child for, it isn’t really a reflection of the child’s intellectual ability. G&T programmes thus end up becoming a segregated enclave within an otherwise diverse school.

Thank you for explaining it so very eloquently. G&T programmes do exist in the UK at Harris Academy schools as I understand it, but these aren’t fundraised by parents.

Notellinganyone · 20/05/2024 18:06

@Elendel - because this is just not how good teaching works. Everyone would like for there to be a simple solution but it’s just like parenting - there are no easy answers. I would no longer teach if I was obliged to use other people’s resources.

BooBooDoodle · 20/05/2024 18:14

I work in a SEND school and we have struggled to recruit but most teachers are training then sacking it off months later to head into a company with much better pay and prospects with basic 9-5 hours a town away (MOD). Teachers, police, firemen, all leaving their professions to go and work in this place for a heck of a lot more money and locally, everywhere is suffering. Most apprenticeships finish when someone is 20/21 and they are catapulted straight into wages of 34k plus. Apprenticeships start out on 24k!
Workload and pay are not enticing at all and pupils these days are god awful and disruptive. Who’d want to do it?

Elendel · 20/05/2024 18:15

Notellinganyone · 20/05/2024 18:06

@Elendel - because this is just not how good teaching works. Everyone would like for there to be a simple solution but it’s just like parenting - there are no easy answers. I would no longer teach if I was obliged to use other people’s resources.

Kind of my point. I was responding to a PP.

Boomer55 · 20/05/2024 18:15

I think some of this is regional. My GS recently applied for a primary school teacher job. There have been 50 applicants which they are currently looking at short-listing. This is in Devon.

cremebrulait · 20/05/2024 18:19

Provide sufficient SEN funding.

PenguinLord · 20/05/2024 18:20

amccabe15 · 20/05/2024 17:47

They’re already recruiting abroad.

They have been for years, surprise, not that many people turn up to teach and some (we had a few Aussie/NZ teachers) already went back.

Sassoon · 20/05/2024 18:25

Charlie2121 · 19/05/2024 20:15

We could do what most other countries do and take further pressure off the state system by encouraging more people to use private schools.

Of course we are about to be burdened with the most appalling government imaginable who are too dense to realise this and instead prefer to pander to voters who have no real appreciation of the economic fall out they’ll cause.

Until recently if you’d told me a government would be anti-education I’d have laughed at you but here we are.

Actually the countries with the most successful education systems have the best state schools and very little private provision. Maybe do some research.

Sassoon · 20/05/2024 18:29

You can really see all the people here raging that their private school fees are going up 😂 I can hear tiny violins…