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Why can the g sound sometimes be pronounced juh when the letter j is there?

15 replies

Soubriquet · 21/03/2024 21:22

English is so weird

I mean

you get garden, ghost, green all with the guh sound.

But then you get Giles, Geoffrey, gem, giant with the juh sound. I know some Geoffrey’s spell it Jeffery now but still

Why?

OP posts:
BingoMarieHeeler · 21/03/2024 21:25

Giles, Geoffrey, gem, giant : G all followed by an I or an E

Just something I noticed, don’t know if there’s anything in that. English is a smoosh of loads of other languages isn’t it so I don’t know.

Edit: hmm no that wouldn’t work as for example ‘give’ is not a J sound. But the ‘i’ in give is an ‘ih’ whereas the ‘I’ in your examples of Giant and Giant are an ‘eye’ sound…?

I find it fascinating!

Soubriquet · 21/03/2024 21:26

True. English is just weird I suppose

OP posts:
NeverDropYourMooncup · 21/03/2024 21:28

Garden, ghost and green are based in Germanic language - garten, geist and grun (can't find the umlaut).

Giant, Geoffrey, Giles, Gem - all French/Latinate - Gigante, Geoffreye, Giles, gemme.

Two different root languages, two different sounds.

TheLovleyChebbyMcGee · 21/03/2024 21:38

Live and live blow my mind, it must be so hard as a non-english to learn the language.

And the words that look like they rhyme but don't. Cow & low, comb & tomb & bomb, blood & food and paid & said!

DanceMumTaxi · 21/03/2024 21:40

Generally speaking when a g is followed by letters a, o or u it is the hard g sound (eg goat). But when a g is followed by an e, y or i it is the soft g sound (eg giant). However, like many words in the English language there are exceptions.

Mumofteenandtween · 21/03/2024 21:45

Britain was invaded by a lot of countries over the years who all brought different languages.

(I say this with my blonde hair and blue eyes - all I need is a helmet with horns on.)

stealthsquirrelnutkin · 21/03/2024 21:46

This poem by a Dutch bloke is impressive, and quite helpful to foreigners trying to master the vagaries of English as she is spoke in England.
https://www.soto-mayor.com/dearest-creature-a-tricky-pronunciation-poem/

Dearest Creature... (a tricky pronunciation poem) - Estudio Sotomayor

https://www.soto-mayor.com/dearest-creature-a-tricky-pronunciation-poem

Stillnormal · 21/03/2024 21:53

Was literally thinking about this today. How would we know whether it was giggle or jiggle etc but as someone else said, live or live is just as much of a thing.

RoseAndRose · 21/03/2024 22:03

I think you're looking at it the wrong way up.

Because I'd be pondering on why the sound "juh" can be written more than one way.

But why "guh" only has the one.

Soubriquet · 21/03/2024 22:08

TheLovleyChebbyMcGee · 21/03/2024 21:38

Live and live blow my mind, it must be so hard as a non-english to learn the language.

And the words that look like they rhyme but don't. Cow & low, comb & tomb & bomb, blood & food and paid & said!

Very true!!! In fact I now admire those who learn English as a second language cos it really is madness.

I always thought learning a second language was hard enough but noooo English has to go “no one is harder than me”

OP posts:
stickygotstuck · 21/03/2024 22:21

It's because of the method used I forget when to standardise (and I use the word loosely) English spelling.

Most languages have had a standardisation like this when writing and printing becane more common. But whereas other languages used a more logical method, English went for frequency.

So if, say, 'cough' was spelled cough / coff/ couf, and the most common was cough, that's the one that was chosen. But then we have 'although' - of that was spelled although / althow /altho, although was chosen because it was most frequently used.

Therefore throwing logic out the window! Essentially, you end up with a disproportionate number of exceptions to rules.

KnickerlessParsons · 21/03/2024 22:36

It's very long, but I love this poem. We show it to all the foreign students who stay with us.

Dearest creature in creation
Studying English pronunciation,
I will teach you in my verse
Sounds like corpse, corps, horse and worse.
I will keep you, Susy, busy,
Make your head with heat grow dizzy;
Tear in eye, your dress you’ll tear;
Queer, fair seer, hear my prayer.
Pray, console your loving poet,
Make my coat look new, dear, sew it!
Just compare heart, hear and heard,
Dies and diet, lord and word.
Sword and sward, retain and Britain
(Mind the latter how it’s written).
Made has not the sound of bade,
Say—said, pay—paid, laid but plaid.
Now I surely will not plague you
With such words as vague and ague,
But be careful how you speak,
Say: gush, bush, steak, streak, break, bleak,
Previous, precious, fuchsia, via,
Recipe, pipe, studding-sail, choir;
Woven, oven, how and low,
Script, receipt, shoe, poem, toe.
Say, expecting fraud and trickery:
Daughter, laughter and Terpsichore,
Branch, ranch, measles, topsails, aisles,
Missiles, similes, reviles.
Wholly, holly, signal, signing,
Same, examining, but mining,
Scholar, vicar, and cigar,
Solar, mica, war and far.
From ‘desire’: desirable—admirable from ‘admire’,
Lumber, plumber, bier, but brier,
Topsham, brougham, renown, but known,
Knowledge, done, lone, gone, none, tone,
One, anemone, Balmoral,
Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel.
Gertrude, German, wind and wind,
Beau, kind, kindred, queue, mankind,
Tortoise, turquoise, chamois-leather,
Reading, Reading, heathen, heather.
This phonetic labyrinth
Gives moss, gross, brook, brooch, ninth, plinth.
Have you ever yet endeavoured
To pronounce revered and severed,
Demon, lemon, ghoul, foul, soul,
Peter, petrol and patrol?
Billet does not end like ballet;
Bouquet, wallet, mallet, chalet.
Blood and flood are not like food,
Nor is mould like should and would.
Banquet is not nearly parquet,
Which exactly rhymes with khaki.
Discount, viscount, load and broad,
Toward, to forward, to reward,
Ricocheted and crocheting, croquet?
Right! Your pronunciation’s OK.
Rounded, wounded, grieve and sieve,
Friend and fiend, alive and live.
Is your R correct in higher?
Keats asserts it rhymes Thalia.
Hugh, but hug, and hood, but hoot,
Buoyant, minute, but minute.
Say abscission with precision,
Now: position and transition;
Would it tally with my rhyme
If I mentioned paradigm?
Twopence, threepence, tease are easy,
But cease, crease, grease and greasy?
Cornice, nice, valise, revise,
Rabies, but lullabies.
Of such puzzling words as nauseous,
Rhyming well with cautious, tortious,
You’ll envelop lists, I hope,
In a linen envelope.
Would you like some more? You’ll have it!
Affidavit, David, davit.
To abjure, to perjure. Sheik
Does not sound like Czech but ache.
Liberty, library, heave and heaven,
Rachel, loch, moustache, eleven.
We say hallowed, but allowed,
People, leopard, towed but vowed.
Mark the difference, moreover,
Between mover, plover, Dover.
Leeches, breeches, wise, precise,
Chalice, but police and lice,
Camel, constable, unstable,
Principle, disciple, label.
Petal, penal, and canal,
Wait, surmise, plait, promise, pal,
Suit, suite, ruin. Circuit, conduit
Rhyme with ‘shirk it’ and ‘beyond it’,
But it is not hard to tell
Why it’s pall, mall, but Pall Mall.
Muscle, muscular, gaol, iron,
Timber, climber, bullion, lion,
Worm and storm, chaise, chaos, chair,
Senator, spectator, mayor,
Ivy, privy, famous; clamour
Has the A of drachm and hammer.
Pussy, hussy and possess,
Desert, but desert, address.
Golf, wolf, countenance, lieutenants
Hoist in lieu of flags left pennants.
Courier, courtier, tomb, bomb, comb,
Cow, but Cowper, some and home.
‘Solder, soldier! Blood is thicker’,
Quoth he, ‘than liqueur or liquor’,
Making, it is sad but true,
In bravado, much ado.
Stranger does not rhyme with anger,
Neither does devour with clangour.
Pilot, pivot, gaunt, but aunt,
Font, front, wont, want, grand and grant.
Arsenic, specific, scenic,
Relic, rhetoric, hygienic.
Gooseberry, goose, and close, but close,
Paradise, rise, rose, and dose.
Say inveigh, neigh, but inveigle,
Make the latter rhyme with eagle.
Mind! Meandering but mean,
Valentine and magazine.
And I bet you, dear, a penny,
You say mani-(fold) like many,
Which is wrong. Say rapier, pier,
Tier (one who ties), but tier.
Arch, archangel; pray, does erring
Rhyme with herring or with stirring?
Prison, bison, treasure trove,
Treason, hover, cover, cove,
Perseverance, severance. Ribald
Rhymes (but piebald doesn’t) with nibbled.
Phaeton, paean, gnat, ghat, gnaw,
Lien, psychic, shone, bone, pshaw.
Don’t be down, my own, but rough it,
And distinguish buffet, buffet;
Brood, stood, roof, rook, school, wool, boon,
Worcester, Boleyn, to impugn.
Say in sounds correct and sterling
Hearse, hear, hearken, year and yearling.
Evil, devil, mezzotint,
Mind the Z! (A gentle hint.)
Now you need not pay attention
To such sounds as I don’t mention,
Sounds like pores, pause, pours and paws,
Rhyming with the pronoun yours;
Nor are proper names included,
Though I often heard, as you did,
Funny rhymes to unicorn,
Yes, you know them, Vaughan and Strachan.
No, my maiden, coy and comely,
I don’t want to speak of Cholmondeley.
No. Yet Froude compared with proud
Is no better than McLeod.
But mind trivial and vial,
Tripod, menial, denial,
Troll and trolley, realm and ream,
Schedule, mischief, schism, and scheme.
Argil, gill, Argyll, gill. Surely
May be made to rhyme with Raleigh,
But you’re not supposed to say
Piquet rhymes with sobriquet.
Had this invalid invalid
Worthless documents? How pallid,
How uncouth he, couchant, looked,
When for Portsmouth I had booked!
Zeus, Thebes, Thales, Aphrodite,
Paramour, enamoured, flighty,
Episodes, antipodes,
Acquiesce, and obsequies.
Please don’t monkey with the geyser,
Don’t peel ’taters with my razor,
Rather say in accents pure:
Nature, stature and mature.
Pious, impious, limb, climb, glumly,
Worsted, worsted, crumbly, dumbly,
Conquer, conquest, vase, phase, fan,
Wan, sedan and artisan.
The TH will surely trouble you
More than R, CH or W.
Say then these phonetic gems:
Thomas, thyme, Theresa, Thames.
Thompson, Chatham, Waltham, Streatham,
There are more but I forget ’em—
Wait! I’ve got it: Anthony,
Lighten your anxiety.
The archaic word albeit
Does not rhyme with eight—you see it;
With and forthwith, one has voice,
One has not, you make your choice.
Shoes, goes, does. Now first say: finger;
Then say: singer, ginger, linger.
Real, zeal, mauve, gauze and gauge,
Marriage, foliage, mirage, age,
Hero, heron, query, very,
Parry, tarry, fury, bury,
Dost, lost, post, and doth, cloth, loth,
Job, Job, blossom, bosom, oath.
Faugh, oppugnant, keen oppugners,
Bowing, bowing, banjo-tuners
Holm you know, but noes, canoes,
Puisne, truism, use, to use?
Though the difference seems little,
We say actual, but victual,
Seat, sweat, chaste, caste, Leigh, eight, height,
Put, nut, granite, and unite.
Reefer does not rhyme with deafer,
Feoffer does, and zephyr, heifer.
Dull, bull, Geoffrey, George, ate, late,
Hint, pint, senate, but sedate.
Gaelic, Arabic, pacific,
Science, conscience, scientific;
Tour, but our, dour, succour, four,
Gas, alas, and Arkansas.
Say manoeuvre, yacht and vomit,
Next omit, which differs from it
Bona fide, alibi
Gyrate, dowry and awry.
Sea, idea, guinea, area,
Psalm, Maria, but malaria.
Youth, south, southern, cleanse and clean,
Doctrine, turpentine, marine.
Compare alien with Italian,
Dandelion with battalion,
Rally with ally; yea, ye,
Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, key, quay!
Say aver, but ever, fever,
Neither, leisure, skein, receiver.
Never guess—it is not safe,
We say calves, valves, half, but Ralf.
Starry, granary, canary,
Crevice, but device, and eyrie,
Face, but preface, then grimace,
Phlegm, phlegmatic, ass, glass, bass.
Bass, large, target, gin, give, verging,
Ought, oust, joust, and scour, but scourging;
Ear, but earn; and ere and tear
Do not rhyme with here but heir.
Mind the O of off and often
Which may be pronounced as orphan,
With the sound of saw and sauce;
Also soft, lost, cloth and cross.
Pudding, puddle, putting. Putting?
Yes: at golf it rhymes with shutting.
Respite, spite, consent, resent.
Liable, but Parliament.
Seven is right, but so is even,
Hyphen, roughen, nephew, Stephen,
Monkey, donkey, clerk and jerk,
Asp, grasp, wasp, demesne, cork, work.
A of valour, vapid vapour,
S of news (compare newspaper),
G of gibbet, gibbon, gist,
I of antichrist and grist,
Differ like diverse and divers,
Rivers, strivers, shivers, fivers.
Once, but nonce, toll, doll, but roll,
Polish, Polish, poll and poll.
Pronunciation—think of Psyche!—
Is a paling, stout and spiky.
Won’t it make you lose your wits
Writing groats and saying ‘grits’?
It’s a dark abyss or tunnel
Strewn with stones like rowlock, gunwale,
Islington, and Isle of Wight,
Housewife, verdict and indict.
Don’t you think so, reader, rather,
Saying lather, bather, father?
Finally, which rhymes with enough,
Though, through, bough, cough, hough, sough, tough?
Hiccough has the sound of sup.
My advice is: GIVE IT UP!

BlackAmericanoNoSugar · 21/03/2024 23:07

I can't remember where I read it but I saw somewhere that English isn't one language, it's at least five different languages standing on each others shoulders and wearing a big coat trying to pretend to be one language. Grin And that's why the rules are all over the shop.

KnickerlessParsons · 22/03/2024 10:51

BlackAmericanoNoSugar · 21/03/2024 23:07

I can't remember where I read it but I saw somewhere that English isn't one language, it's at least five different languages standing on each others shoulders and wearing a big coat trying to pretend to be one language. Grin And that's why the rules are all over the shop.

That is correct.
Various Celtic/gaelic type languages
Saxon,
Norse,
Latin,
French

To name but a few

Sgtmajormummy · 22/03/2024 13:35

I’ve just downloaded a phonetics keyboard for the iPad. Here goes!

g+ I or E = /dʒ/ gist, bridge
g+ O, U, or consonant = /ɡ/ gone, guilty

g+ Y is more of a problem: gymnastics /dʒ/ or gynaecology /ɡ/, depending on the origin of the word.
g+ IR = /ɡ/ girdle, girl.

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