Can we talk about ageing populations?

[Kendodd]

Birth rates around the world are collapsing. South Korea has the lowest birth rate at about 0.7. That means for every 100 people, 35 children will be born. There are predicted to be more people over 65 than under very soon. Many countries are predicted to see their populations half be 2100. While I think this is great for the planet and wouldn't want to change things, it will present problems.

What to do?

There's already a crisis of recruitment in care. Throwing more money at it won't work, we need people to do other jobs as well. Limiting care/health care to the elderly, I can't see how that would work either. Also, most of these countries are democracies, the elderly would be the most powerful voting block.

Anyone any ideas?

That’s not what anyone is saying, I don’t think.

People are saying that IF someone wishes to die, they should be allowed/assisted to. If they want to live as long as possible, they should be given all the care and treatment possible. I am so sorry to hear about your diagnosis and I hope you get excellent treatment.

I’m truly sorry to hear you’ve had an upsetting diagnosis. I hope you cope with your illness for many years to come and that the NHS will be a great support.

No one wants you to die but perhaps there may come a time when you yourself have had enough. It should be everyone’s right to choose their end of life care.

For me, as I get older I would rather go from a stroke or a heart attack or cancer or whatever with dignity. I do not want my DC to have to care for me whist modern medicine keeps me alive in pain or lacking capacity.

As someone with a serious progressive disease I see both the need to protect people's rights to life AND to give people some autonomy over death. A high number of people with my condition take their own lives in the end. I don't want that for me or my family- the trauma would be horrible. I want the right to good care for as long as I choose to have it and the right to a compassionate and managed exit from this world.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Well said.

Yep!

Always treat children.

When a person is of an age to make their own decisions, they should be allowed to.
I know a few people who have refused cancer treatment. They have taken some medication to improve the quality of their shortened life but were allowed to choose not to prolong it at poor quality.
If people with disabilities are able to make an informed choice, they should also be allowed to.
People should not be able to make a decision on behalf of someone else without their consent.

More immigrants isn't the answer as they will get old too and need care themselves, so it just perpetuates the ponzi scheme.

We just need to find ways to get over the "hump" and then the population size can start to fall again and the problems can be managed better.

That means getting more people to actually work and to stop the ever increasing epidemic of worklessness, from the young, middle and older. Far too many people aren't working and many of those who are working aren't working long enough, with too much part time, too much early retirement, etc. We need to get more people working throughout, and some of those will have to be care workers.

Pointless bringing in immigrants to just increase the population, increase the housing crisis, increase the GP/Dentist crisis, etc., when we have loads of people who could work but don't!

Pay carers £30 an hour and the recruitment crisis will end.

Dont know who will
Pay however

Legalise assisted euthanasia.

I don't think anyone is saying that - they are saying that if you want to die sooner, it should be up to you to be able to choose to

I think those who are suggesting that improving childcare and making having children more affordable will improve the birth rate are on a hiding to nothing. Even in countries with world class free childcare, tax breaks for parents and all the fiscal and societal family-friendly policies imaginable, birth rates are dropping. The biggest predictor of decreased birthrate is increased education rates of women and girls. The more educated women are, the fewer children they have - this phenomenon has been seen worldwide.

@ArbitraryHaddock I am sorry about your situation 💐 .
I agree with assisted dying as an individual choice, not a blanket policy applied to everyone in certain situations. Nobody is saying that you should die, just that my body my choice should extend to assisted dying should a person want that as a treatment option.

Completely agree coureur I think people (mainly women) are realising all the downsides of having children and making a conscious choice to have none or fewer. Finances are only a small part of this. Even if more kids were affordable, women also don’t want to compromise their careers, social life, exercise or hobbies or ability to travel, sleep, risk body damage from birth etc. And that’s a perfectly valid choice.

This is me as well. Completely agree with you.

Dementia terrifies me. Not even the ending up in a home part, but what I might do before it comes to that. Your whole personality can change and you can end up doing things that would horrify your present self. I don't want my DC to see that or remember me like that.

A friend of mine, his father was bed bound, blind and deaf. He lasted like that for a good few years and my friend was caring for him at home. No life for either of them. My friend admitted it would be a relief when he died.

People in favour of assisted dying (like me) don't want to kill all old people! If you want to live as long as possible, that's absolutely your choice. What we want is to be able to choose our own life/end of life. We should be allowed to.

I have argued this for years. Why do we keep people alive( no matter what age) when their quality of life will be so low. I asked my friend who is a nurse this very question her answer was Doctors love to play god and the drug companies pay well. We need to learn to let go.

Having more children is not the answer, it's just kicking the can down the road. Those children will become old too, along with more medical advances and you'll find the aging population increasing again. What then? More children? All the while we are using the earth's resources quicker and quicker each year. Making sure we all put our jars, cans and cardboard in the right recycling box is not going to save our planet, reducing our demand on the planet will.

I totally agree our attitude to prolonging life way past any decent quality of life is becoming so detrimental. My grandmother had a stroke. It didn't kill her. The stroke left her unable to eat and drink she she died nearly three weeks later of thirst/hunger. It was inhumane.

*Totally and utterly agree. I don't have children because the world is overpopulated and I refuse to get involved in the human ponzi scheme.

I need to do my bit then. When I am no longer a service to society and I'm being kept alive for far longer than I should be I'd prefer to do my bit and pop off thanks.

That should stop the plaintiff cries of 'who will care for you when you are older and pay taxes to keep you????!!!*

Don’t agree at all that decisions on assisted dying should have anything to do with whether you’ve had children! Indeed there are plenty of people whose children don’t look after them and don’t pay taxes (or take out more than they pay in). It should be determined entirely on whether you want to live or not.

How would you decide quality of life What is the decider?

I absolutely agree with all of your post

I am 56 and have had cancer (that was 17 years ago now though) and recently had a cancer scare.
If I was ever terminally Ill I wouldn't want it prolonged at all. I would want to die and accept my life had reached its natural end.
I also support assisted dying as does my DM and as did DF.
You would not let an animal suffer pain so why allow Humans.

If you agree that we should have more legal options around withdrawal of treatment and assisted dying - please can you sign the Dignity in Dying petition if you haven’t already? https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/653593

They’re only campaigning for a very narrow set of circumstances - a mentally competent adult, with a terminal illness, should be allowed to choose assisted dying. To be this seems a no brainer and frankly inhumane it’s not already allowed.

The petition has reached sufficient signatures that it’s going to be debated at the end of April, but more signatures are still helpful to show more public support.

Like other sensible posters have said, children will, in the in the natural scheme of things, also grow old so how is having more of them going to lead to a different outcome? Makes absolutely no sense to me. Moreover, it seems morally wrong to want to breed other human beings so that they will take care of you in later life!

The difference between being disabled and being really old is that a disabled person's condition can often be managed to give them decades of decent quality of life, including having a job with sufficient support.

Recognise that women bearing children do work for the State by creating and rearing new citizens. From that, paying decent rates of child benefit follows logically.

I think people need to plan more for their age. Getting power of attorneys in place, advanced planning and making wishes known to younger family. Using assistive technology to keep people at home longer. Personally I will try and look after my parents/inlaws as much as possible when they are older (I'm a nurse). They have done a lot for me and my family.

we are keeping people alive far too long. People are spending longer and longer as a burden to society than as contributer. This is becoming the acceptable rhetoric.

Who gets to decide our quality of life is too low?

During Covid it was decided for me. I was in hospital for something else when I got it. DNR'd without consultation, then turned down for ICU and ventilation. After that nutrition, and treatment became more sporadic.
I get it, resources were scarce, and I'm visibly disabled. Difficult decisions.

But, there was no conversation, I wasn't at any time included in the process, just others deciding my fate, and then nursing staff seeing others as more worth nursing as a result. As it happens nature was on my side where nurture wasn't.

I know I need to learn to let go, I know it's selfish of me to want to keep going when I cost more money than I earn, and I often think about I ought to accept it and take the necessary actions to stop being here, but I keep wanting to do so much more first.