Should we more honest about the impact of children in careers ?

[mids2019]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-13184193/Lily-Allen-insists-choosing-motherhood-pop-stardom-love-children-ruined-career.html

Is Lily Allen being honest here and saying something that a lot of women (and possibly men) realise but don't openly admit to?

I think in a fundamental sense she has a point in that for women celebs and athletes having children if not logistically 'managed' can destroy a career. For women athletes the reality is for many having children is normally done at the still end of a career with the understanding at an elite level pregnancy and early years child reading can be difficult while meeting the extreme demands of competitive sport. You could argue Taylor Swift may or may not have had the career she had if she had given birth to a couple of children (possibly losing a little career momentum because of being out of the limelight for 2 or 3 years).

On the more mortal level having children can push you back on a career path as part time working may put you back relative to your peers and as children get older it becomes more difficult to move due to schooling and children friendship ties. Having children means there may be less opportunity to 'put in the extra mile to further you career by gaining a 'hard working' reputation.

Should we be more honest about this in society and admit even in 2024 there are sacrificed to be made having childen? Are these sacrifices something we can put down to a lifestyle choice of do we need to continue to press to remove any career disadvantage having children may bring?

Really? And stacking supermarket shelves is? People talk about all these wonderfully fulfilling and challenging careers but the majority of jobs are mundane and repetitive.

Are you responding to the previous poster? Ironically, I agree with both of you. Women should not buy into the expected "get married and have kids" package, but also, a career doesn't necessarily mean you are going to be "fulfilled" and be better than having kids.

Just make a choice based on what works for you.

@anunlikelyseahorse like most men with demanding careers i had/have a non working spouse...i know women with working partners who used nannies though to facilitate travel - even with school age children .
What I am saying is that it is a choice- it is not inevitable . I do wish i'd taken more time out and maybe given up some of the career but it is still a choice.
I think it is shifting and maybe there is more ability to do both for both men and women

I think for previous generations intelligent women would take low power caring roles for employment of at all. There was an acceptance and maybe an expectation women would spend a significant amount of time child rearing.

There is more choice today but is it a real choice or a choice really bounded by societal and logistical pressures dependent on the individual/couple?

As I have said before intelligent women in general marry intelligent men and if we still see men as the 'bread winner' ,and I think men very much view career status as part of their masculinity , then it will be the women that are faced with the parenting v career dilemma.

The concern I think is that there are women who will not regret having children but seriously regret not having career choices they believe they deserve after trying hard at school and university. Parenthood is certainly not factored into a lot of job roles and I think early parenthood (aged less than 25??) Is frowned upon by a lot of graduate employers.

We are apparently meant to focus on staff health and wellbeing in the NHS but if anyone raises childcare as a form of stress it isn't taken seriously as there is an attitude of your bed you lie in it.

I can think of at least two men I know who get/got more life satisfaction from work than their own family (unfortunately one is my dad). It's a bit of a taboo to admit, but let's not deny they exist.

No doubt there are women who feel the same way but even harder for them to admit.

At best a lot of this stuff is only a "choice" because if the other parent opts out, what choice do you have? Subcontract to paid carers, neglect the kids yourself or neglect your career? Some choice!!

I'm not in that position myself -- DH and I have both made career compromises and stuck with the one child (just as well as she has SEN), but I certainly don't feel I had much of a genuine choice at some key decision points. More some okish and not so ok options. And some judgement whatever I picked.

But if we can't have it all - men can't either. We need to make that absolutely clear. (caveat: unless you're really ok playing the supporting role, which is fine, but make sure you are financially solid for if anything happens and your retirement)

i have recently changed jobs. Apart from me as wizzened old crone with adult children, the rest are mostly young, with only a couple of them with children.

I talk about the impact of children on my career at breaks, and i talk to the bosses (small familial company) about how to support employees at various stages of their lives (including my menopausal body's requirements, and my need to spread my leave evenly over a year because of family commitments a long way away). I talk to the men too, about parental leave, about how they can support their wives back to work (that is one particular chap and he asked me because he knows my DH took 1,5 years parental leave)

In short: i am shouting it from the rooftops because the expectation that you can "have it all" or that you don't have to cut your coat to suit your cloth post children is leading to many unhappy people.

Yes I do think it’s about realistic expectations always. Some women are unhappy because they had delusions about the career tax children result in, even if they’re much wanted.

I lost all my choices when my partner left me to raise our four children alone. I had to then find work around the needs of my children. Women do seem to pick up the slack when it comes to the children even today.

I do think that in the fight for women to have a good career with equal pay we have ended up being left with the expectation we can do it all. Have that career, have a family and the government has used this to say ok, now it means you need two wages to meet household costs which in turn means women feel they have to work - not to have a career but just to survive raising a family financially even if their job is meaningless to them in the longer term.

I am loving this discussion.

There is another factor when women have children, especially in the entertainment world where women need to be seen as interesting, strong, exciting and sexy, but also in other not so glamorous backgrounds: having children suddenly turns women "boring". It's not very politically correct to say this, but there's this phenomenon in which a young, thin, sexy woman who is a famous singer/actress/entertainer has a massive following who admire her not only for the work she does, but for what she represents.

And then children arrive. And that vibrant, beautiful, carefree woman who talked about exciting things suddenly spends her days breastfeeding, and heating bottles of formula, and having sleepless nights, and starts sentences with "as a mother...", and becomes very judgmental about parenting techniques, and baby-feeding, and talks endlessly about nappies, and goes to after-school events.

Frankly, for the "public", the previous exciting and interesting woman may as well be dead. And I haven't even started on the "sexy" part of it that often goes down the toilet as soon as babies arrive.

It's what I call the "Katniss Everdeen effect". One of the most amazing, exciting, inspiring female heroes in literature (in my opinion, that is)... and then you get to the last bit of the last book (WARNING!!! MASSIVE SPOILERS) decides to have children with Peta, which is something she never considered before and I did not see coming... and suddenly she becomes a bit... just... meh. Then she is all about "these world I leave to my children", and "I love them so much" and "my children this, my children that". And you read that with massive disappointment, missing the brave, kick-ass Katniss of the three books, and just wish she had not ended up getting together with that boring Peta and having the boring, mundane, predictable life of a mum.

Because let's admit it, for most women their children are these amazing people who are the centre of their world and fill them with immense love and wonder every day. But for everyone else, her children are just utterly average kids you wouldn't look at twice on the street. Hearing a mum talking about her children for more than 5 minutes is often unfathomably dull.

Surprisingly, this tends not to happen with men, who even after having kids can still maintain the careless, sexy, adventurous, interesting persona. Often because someone else (a woman) is doing all the boring stuff with his kids, and because men tend not to be thinking about their children all the time.

kids pay the price of this myth too, a
significant amount of under 5s don’t do
well in nursery, want to come home at 3 after school and they’re expected to cope and thrive in group childcare for the length of an adult day plus commute from the end of maternity leave
on.

@brefugee apologies my post wasn't clear. When I said we I didn't mean only Mums.

I think it is so difficult to balance it all and there are very few women who pull it off and it always looks like a performance. I think I’ve only seen one person on this thread mention running a business - but there is a huge conversation around women who start a business or freelance (which has its own challenges) in order to work around the needs of their children whilst making a living and doing something worthwhile for themselves. I know a few “mumpreneurs” but it takes contacts, drive, a supportive partner or family.

Both my pregnancies were unplanned and honestly the first thought was “oh no I’ve ruined my life” and as a women there is a realisation that things can change and that everything does fall on you. But also I do genuinely value my daughters upbringing more than a career - as long as I’m earning enough to keep us going. I could work so much harder and not turn up to plays or come home late etc, but I want to be there. I do know mums that have put their all in their careers, especially when their children are slightly more grown up. Being there for our children is a choice.

I also wonder if when you have your children makes a difference. I found it easier to have my first young, build my career - then I kind of got bored and set up a business which allows me flexibility. But my second came at the peak of my career and that’s the challenge - giving parts of it up - which I guess is what Lily Allen is expressing. There is a reason why there is a growing trend to have children later- you almost want to feel fulfilled as an individual. Then again I know women that have found fulfilment in being a mum. It’s really up to the individual to define success.

Stacking supermarket shelves is pretty much a teenager job. It's not a career.

I just hired babysitters when I needed to do these things.

The only way a working Mum can progress in her career is if she has a partner who is fully sharing the home and DC load, and is committed to seeing her win too.

I'm now a single working Mum, at a senior level. I met my EXDP later in life, so was senior and single with no DC when we got together. Having had DC, I was still working at a senior level, yet he expected me to do everything home and DC related, then became emotionally abusive, so I left him.

The only way I can do life now is by outsourcing everything possible, and buying every service available. I have a nanny housekeeper, gardener, window cleaner and handyman who sort out DC and the house. This comes at a huge cost, and my outgoings per month are at least £9,000. You'd need to be on a high salary to sustain this sort of help on an on-going basis.

Even with all this support, I am unable/unwilling to stay late at work on a regular basis. I have just over an hour's commute, and prioritise seeing DC in the evening, so I leave work early, and I log back on once DC have gone to bed. I ideally need a day's notice to attend evening events, so I can arrange childcare, though could do same day if needed. I don't like doing that too often though, and certainly no more than once per week, as it means I don't get to see my DC in the evening.

@grinandslothit not everyone can "just hire a babysitter". If you have DC with SEN, as I do, they may need specialist care which can't always just be plucked off the shelf.

@Waferbiscuit I get it

It would be fascinating to find his many famous women historically and currently were or are childless. I suspect a high proportion.

It's an interesting discussion and having two daughters who are reasonably intelligent and ambitious In am struck by how many discussions we have about future employment possibilities and career directions without touching on the possibility of them having chikdren. Obviously school and university careers advice will be given without gender or potential future parenthood in mind so a lot of the type of discussion on this thread won't be had openly with those who influence your career.

We have careers talks all the time but hardly any about how to be a parent and have a career. The latter I think is important.

I think in reality you could argue parenthood can be mundane at one level and as it it makes up so much time it can shroud your personality and indeed make you more 'boring'. I think in my workplace a lot of professional women don't talk about children and there is a desire not to be seen as 'mumsy' and I think this actually prevents women talking about a subject which can cause stress and therefore have a mental health impact of they can't occasionally express the stress they are under combining work and home life.

Now my dcs are now young adults both myself and my dh are glad we prioritised our dcs over our careers when they were growing up . Seeing our dcs going into the world as well adjusted adults with whom we have great relationships is far more satisfying than any high power well paid job but which sapped all your energy and time. We made the decision to pull back on work when they were growing up to be there for them. Beforehand we were both in senior positions in our organisations but knew we couldn’t keep doing those jobs and raise our dcs how we would want to so chose our dcs over our careers

@Mycatsmudge snap, that’s exactly the way we feel.

Just to say we continued working when we stepped back but in more flexible less high profile roles. We were very content to have jobs which worked around the dcs and family life even if people at parties were less impressed when we mentioned what we did

Motherhood has always been portrayed in popular and classic literature as the opposite of adventure, though. Just look at the Anne of Green Gables books. George Eliot even comments wryly on it at the end of Middlemarch. The minutiae of looking after babies and small children occupy the same place in most literary plots as going to the loo.

But Dorothea did try to do something beyond the normal female role, firstly by being a research-assistant to her first husband and secondly with her money, as a rich widow. But she was hedged in by social structures and those around her being so blinking unsupportive! So I don’t think she can be blamed for picking family life and happiness via motherhood.

However, in the final paragraphs, George Elliot explicitly states the value of those who are loved by those around them and who ‘rest in unvisited tombs’.

Going to the loo, or, the effort and reality of child rearing is minimised or invisible.

Or even taboo. Hence the comparison. For a long time the ‘blood and guts’ side of childbirth and looking after babies and small children was just not talked about, never mind written about. Whereas the blood and guts of battle was elevated to glory. We talk about being ‘in the trenches’ of motherhood but still lack the vocabulary to get it taken seriously due to the taboos of the past.