Should we more honest about the impact of children in careers ?

[mids2019]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-13184193/Lily-Allen-insists-choosing-motherhood-pop-stardom-love-children-ruined-career.html

Is Lily Allen being honest here and saying something that a lot of women (and possibly men) realise but don't openly admit to?

I think in a fundamental sense she has a point in that for women celebs and athletes having children if not logistically 'managed' can destroy a career. For women athletes the reality is for many having children is normally done at the still end of a career with the understanding at an elite level pregnancy and early years child reading can be difficult while meeting the extreme demands of competitive sport. You could argue Taylor Swift may or may not have had the career she had if she had given birth to a couple of children (possibly losing a little career momentum because of being out of the limelight for 2 or 3 years).

On the more mortal level having children can push you back on a career path as part time working may put you back relative to your peers and as children get older it becomes more difficult to move due to schooling and children friendship ties. Having children means there may be less opportunity to 'put in the extra mile to further you career by gaining a 'hard working' reputation.

Should we be more honest about this in society and admit even in 2024 there are sacrificed to be made having childen? Are these sacrifices something we can put down to a lifestyle choice of do we need to continue to press to remove any career disadvantage having children may bring?

but the decisions you are making could be made by your male partner too.

I’m going against the grain here but I’m a single parent to a 2 year old and I’ve not felt any adverse affect on my career. I work full time in a senior role but my job is very flexible and I work mostly from home, with some UK travel. I am lucky in that my family are very supportive in providing child care and my employer is also really supportive. I work in a very male dominated field and all of my colleagues and superiors are men but I’ve found them to be really understanding in the case of illness or childcare issues. I think what helped in my case is that I waited until my mid 30s to have my son and therefore had done the hard slog in my younger child free years and am now experiencing the benefits of being well respected in my role.

well good, right? but your child is 2. mine are 30. I have been fighting for this kind of thing for decades. It is about time it bears fruit

@mids2019

But I don't see it as children limiting your ability to move city . Children are adaptable and happy parents usually = happy child. YOU are making that choice. Same as if you are restricted to a city due to your spouse's job. So you may think it's the child restricting you but it's actually not.

And a workplace will be very brave these days to say no to a man's requests for parental leave/ flexibility simply because he is a man

DH and I are both teachers.

In extremis we rely on the kindly freelance musician down the road. We work for reasonable bosses though. They wouldn't prevent us leaving if we really had to.

@mids2019 and I know a medic who took 5 years out of medicine altogether and got into a training programme and made consultant ......

In some fields such as surgery it may be difficult

It is important to realise you can't be at work and at home at the same time. Perhaps the mentality of women is that they don't want to miss out on home .......

It takes two people, mostly a man and a woman to have a baby. So its up to both to divide the responsibility

@chopc

It's an interesting point.

I would argue it would take a particularly ambitious parent to move their children to new schools if they have an established friendship group. I think it is a big factor in decision making and although you are right in that people are at liberty to move it is a big sacrifice in compromising potentially children's happiness

There are numerous other ways that child bearing can be career limiting and I think there are many examples on this thread. It is very much employer and sector dependent in my opinion .

@chopc
Maybe it was the trust and it was a few years back.

There was definitely ire directed against her for delaying or not completing training at least not in her hearing.

A lot of talk about the doctor playing 'f*ing mommy' today and other delightful phrases. I hope others experience was better!!

Put bluntly, the perceived 'needs' of children have skyrocketed

Absolutely, and not necessarily to children’s benefit. In my late primary and secondary school years I was what was then called a ‘latchkey kid’, expected to get on with piano practice and homework (with varying degrees of success I might add) till my DM got in at about six o’clock. I remember walking to and from my piano lessons by myself, often in the dark in winter. My DM was in a niche part of the nursing profession where the hours were comparatively family-friendly and so she could climb the ladder without sacrificing too much family time.

I like to think I learned a certain amount of self-reliance in those quiet times between four and six p.m.

I think the reality is that something has to give and compromises made. Part time working was a good option for me: it kept me in the game and kept the option of senior positions available.

But.. I have also decided that the monetary reward for moving up a level isn’t worth it for the sacrifices I’d need to make in terms of my children. That is absolutely my choice but I am realistic that the next level above me at work means no evening activities for the kids or forking out for a nanny instead of school wrap-around care. The extra salary bumf at this level would not cover the difference between wrap around (£6k a year for two) and a nanny (£30k plus). My husband has a big job, it would break us if we both tried to have one. He does drop-offs, covers his fair share of sickness etc but struggles to do the evenings as he works longer hours. This means he often doesn’t see the kids before they go to bed and I’d hate that. So yes my kids limit my career but a lot of that is personal choice.

100 percent agree about higher parenting expectations - my mum SAH and I don’t recall he ever asking about, or looking at my homework. Far fewer school events, no extra curriculars.

The poor quality of the childcare options was the biggest shocker, care with little care - and that things can get harder and poorer quality when you look at school, after school clubs and holiday clubs. The endless sick days…endless holidays.

i do think i was mis-sold that we could have it all - the career hit to get two children through to the end of primary is huge and I would place a big bet on the birth rate continuing to decline.

i work full time but my career has definitely not advanced due to not being able to travel, turning down promotions, not being able to lead things in case a child gets sick etc. I’m lucky it’s still ticking over.

I definitely think parenting, and life in general, is hyper emotive now. All the gushing online about them being your babies forever, how they should come first in everything you do, how you should prove your love by devoting your life to them, is just too much and is actually damaging. My parents never lost a moments sleep over my first day at school, there certainly weren’t tears about their baby girl growing up or whatever. All the wailing when they go up to secondary or have their leaver’s prom, it’s all very 🙄

Oh goodness the Facebook posts about the hardest thing about parenting is when they leave home…spare me.

I have made it work. Four things mattered

1. Work like a dog before kids. Get as senior and well paid as possible, that gives flexibility and ability to buy help.
2. Marry someone who does at least half of everything always, box and cox
3. Don’t be embarrassed to buy all the help you can afford, and in particular an amazing nanny. This obv requires £, see above
4. Don’t go into a totally nut job industry.

I am not saying these are things we should have to do if we want the “top power plus kids you see enough” scenario, but I think it’s a realistic prescription! As a previous poster said it brings home how unfairly out of reach this is for many people who don’t have all these options. 🙁

@Lindtnotlint and 5. Live somewhere you can afford to buy, i.e. not London OR choose your parents very carefully indeed if you live anywhere south of Peterborough.

Yes, we need to stop lying to women.

I've worked FT my entire life and as a single parent of two aged 9 and 16 for the last 12 years in a senior role which requires very intense 9-5 and about 25 hrs/week outside of work. I have no family about or support.

Being a single parent and a woman has hammered my career because:

• I have no time for professional development. Can't get to conferences unless they start at 10am and end at 3pm. No time in the evening for coursework or studying.
• I am not able to go to early morning staff sessions or evening events. No socialising with staff and other senior leaders. People notice you by your absence.
• I have no time to do things in my sector (the arts) so am losing cultural capital.
• I am exhausted all the time which affects my performance.
• I have no one to vent about work situations and to help talk through work challenges so no help with resolving problems.
• I also don't have anyone to support or encourage me to go for something more, so hard to stay motivated.
• I do not have any financial buffer so despite working FT have no disposable income. This impacts how I look, present myself etc and how I relax in my free time (which doesn't exist).
• I am unable to take on the work of a more senior role/next job up as it requires even more extra hours and more socialising.
• Taking a new job is a risk anyway as I need to work somewhere that respects me and is childcare friendly. Starting somewhere new and discovering they are not flexible would destroy me.
• I do however apply for jobs but sometimes can't even make the interviews due to childcare responsibilities.
• I am unable to take a new job somewhere else in the UK as don't have the money to pay for renting and the general expenses of moving.
• I am competing with arrogant enabled men who have wives or partners to support them. I cannot compete with these men who glide through life and dominate our work culture. (And at times I genuinely feel their wives are traitors to the cause because they've decided enabling and cleaning for men is worth the trade off of £, but that's another issue...)

These are just some of the obstacles I've faced in my situation and why even working FT as a parent desperately affects ones career.

I think some women who decide to go part-time or become SAHM need to have some gratitude about their situation. Yes, they may have to put a halt to their career or make compromises, but they have the money from a partner to fund it and that is a luxury. Not everyone does.

And 5) Don't have kids with any special needs.

Easy peasy.

its not just parenting small children which can impact careers. Teenagers still at school still need their parents around most of the time they are home. Ok to leave them for a couple of hours in the evenings now and then but not unsupervised for days on end. They are also are too old for childcare. I’ve seen how some teenagers can go off the rails when both parents have big jobs working insane hours and / or needing to travel regularly for work. Teens are given a lot of money by parents for food/ entertainment/ assuage guilt inevitably some of that money will go on alcohol and/ or the local drug dealer. Lots of money with not much supervision is a bad recipe.

I agree, we can't have it all, somethings got to give.

With the exception of female athletes where there is a physical aspect - i don't agree., It is all a choice. None of the things cited have to impact women /mothers rather than men/fathers - its just social pressure its not automatic.
Most of the problems can be dealt with but fundamentally a lot of mothers want the option to spend time with the children - and given there is only finite time something has to suffer.
So i have always had a demanding career - and had to travel - but post children i wanted to limit travel (so would fly on a monday morning say rather than Sunday - or come back earlier etc - or limit the number of times i'd go) - this was because emotionally i couldn't be away that long - in theory i had the same ability to be away as my male colleagues but chose otherwise

(i appreciate that single parenting is different)

The point made about not having kids with special needs or indeed any serious problems with bullying/health/etc is totally fair. A good addition to the list. I feel very very very lucky and that one is truly all luck 😟

Who looks after your kids when you are away? Presumably your husband can take time off work if your child is ill? Presumably you live close to a school with full wraparound care?
Yes it's a choice, and I wouldn't make the same choice again. I wouldn't have had children if I had known the hit my career would take. I saw my work colleagues all manage and assumed I'd be able to do similar, what I hadn't factored in, was no grandparents to help out (which all my colleagues had). Very little nursery provision, token wraparound care at our catchment school, and a dh who worked in an industry with no flexibility. I love my children, but I believed the lie that you can have kids and a career, but that's not been my experience or the experience on my friends who don't have grandparents on tap. My friends who have forged on with their careers have all had grandparents or earn enough to have a nanny.
I think a large number of professional women will decide not to have children. And truthfully I'd much rather dd focused on a career and didn't have kids.

@anunlikelyseahorse do you really mean that you get more life satisfaction from your work than your family? That’s a pretty unusual perspective for either men or women who are parents.

My friends who have forged on with their careers have all had grandparents or earn enough to have a nanny.

I didn’t even have DH on tap! His parents (useless) were 250 miles away and mine over 5,000!

The work world was created by and for men.

I think being honest that marriage and/or children isn't necessarily the best thing for a woman to do in her life.