Some thoughts about dying town centres

[OtterTails]

I have been reading an older thread from 2022 about how many towns across the UK are becoming hollow shells of their former selves. How anti social issues have increased in many of these dying towns, with empty shops and even entire disused precincts.
My own old home town suffered a similar fate - where once there was a mix of social backgrounds and culture, old and young, this has steadily been replaced by troubled souls (addicts/ street drinkers, etc). You never see elderly people there now, and the regular shoppers disappeared after the closure of M&S about 5 years ago. One reason that likely makes this worse is that the local council placed a lot of the troubled singles in the areas around the town centre, which I think has put the last nail in the coffin.

But even though most of us are aware of big stores such as Amazon and online shopping having played a huge pat in this decline, I think there's more to it. Probably a mix of many reasons. We shop differently now, and the wold is changing, etc etc...

And then I thought (not heard this mentioned before), since so many people in the thread said that difficult road systems and parking fees have put them off going into town, maybe our increasing car use has played a big role, too.
There are far many more people on the roads now than ever before, and many older town centres don't have the space or infrastructure to manage this. So in this sense I think that the way we use our cars has altered how we choose to shop, which is quite different to say 20 years ago at the latter end of the high street boom, when many people still used public transport to go to town, even if they owned a vehicle. Or there were simply less people driving, so the roads/carparks weren't as chock full.

Just a thought, it might not just be about business rates or online shopping.

In my old town now, most of the people on the dying high street are at the lowest income bracket, which was absolutely not the case even 10 years ago. I am wondering if this is because they are less likely to own a vehicle - and the only shops that remain cater to this market.
So our larger economy is shaping the decline also.

Most of the pretty, thriving towns I know aren't particularly affluent, but they do have a mix of culture and age ranges, and people coming through often. My old home town doesn't, so the casino's and cheap shops are the only one's left.

I live in a relatively affluent area so our suburb’s high street isn’t doing too badly. But I agree car use has a massive amount to do with it. People on local Facebook groups bellyache about how they can’t use local businesses because of how difficult it is for them to park or how much traffic there is and how the council are terrible for doing things like putting in cycle lanes or making streets one way. These people generally live within half a mile of the high street and sit in their SUVs polluting the air for everyone else instead of walking to the places they claim to support.

Post pandemic our city centre needs a rethink. A lot of the large employers now don’t have people in the office full-time and even the universities are doing more online, so there isn’t the footfall to support the number of businesses there previously was. And where once the fighting spice addicts and people queuing for their methadone outside the chemist were mixed in with more workers and students, now it sometimes feels like they’re all I see and it’s a bit grim tbh.

How about focusing more on accessible experiences ( bars, restaurants, shows, festivals)? When my city organised events, the city is jam packed and there's such a good vibe.

@ALunchbox a town close to me is trying hard to support its town centre, part if the redevelopment includes supporting cafes etc… as well as events (think LGBT event, German market, Christmas market etc….)
Exactly the sort of stuff you are mentioning.

Went there during the week to meet up with a friend. It was DEAD. As in walking from the cafe we had lunch back to the car, I didn’t see ONE person. If you think about walking though a town centre during lockdown, that’s how it felt.

So yes, at the weekend etc… you have people around, etc…
But if you only have cafes and markets/events, there is nothing to attract people to the town centre during the day. There is no reason for people to go there.

There needs to be a balance between cafes and shops. Independent shops, butchers and greengrocers.

Another town nearby is doing well. But it has all of that. Butchers, greengrocers, independent shops and some cheap shop. A market twice a week that attracts loads of people. Clothes and shoes, some chains (think fat face etc…)

I would use my local town much more if I had a frequent and reliable bus service. I can't pop down during my lunch break as my bus comes hourly and with a gap of 2.5 hours during the afternoon. It also doesn't run after 5pm so I can't get out in the evening. Also public transport gets rather expensive if you have to bring extra people (such as children, friends, partners) with you.

I buy directly from 'makers' eg Etsy, so no need to go into an actual shops. I buy clothes online for kids etc, the postie delivers them and I can do my shopping from home at midnight if I want to.

This is why shops on the high street are closing.

Is the death of the high street a bad thing?

Yes. Why do you have to ask?
I find never going out for drinks, food or shopping is rather isolating and joyless.

How about focusing more on accessible experiences ( bars, restaurants, shows, festivals)

This is what our local town are doing, and it is very successful.

Which town is that?

How far is it. Could you not walk? Would save your parking charge and make you feel good.

I'm sorry my vision of a terrible future was depressing It was an exaggeration, but I can actually see this blossoming in my old town, definitely.

I am happy where I live now and do find the community very friendly. It does get a lot of visitors passing through so I think that helps. Shrewsbury has an excellent market, too. The comparison to my old town is phenomenal - I actually see tons of elderly people out and about here, but I doubt they feel safe or able now in Wigan.

‘ look at other European countries, like France, who still has thriving town centres, I’d say the issue is poverty.’

I lived in France for fifteen years, came back just before Covid. While we were there we saw a precipitous decline in town centres, both in our own central affluent ‘tourist’ area and in the more rural places we visited. Our local town went from having a centre where you could buy literally anything from a sewing machine or spare part thereof, to a handmade vase. There were butchers, bakers, cosmetic shops, a dry cleaner, two bookshops, clothes shops ranging from the lingerie to the raincoat, shoe shops….the notaire, several doctors , hairdressers were all there.

Now there are opticians ( because the state pays for the eye tests) estate agents, a couple of banks. The baker does mainly sandwiches and takeaways for tourists, most of the restaurants have become much fancier , also aimed at the tourist market but closed October to April. The rest, including the notaire have moved out to the local out of town centre or just packed up completely, so people seem to buy their clothes at the Hyper or Decathlon.

Our town, which was also the head of the district so had the council offices etc, hung on for longer than most of the places we visited. I think many people only see France as a tourist when the shops and restaurants aimed at that trade are flourishing.

I'm not in the UK but my parents are and their local high street has really got steadily more depressing over the last few years! I'm in a small city in Italy and the centre is always busy. I think the following factors contribute:

• the city centre is not all commercial. A lot of people live above the shops which means it doesn't become a ghost town after closing.
• more individual shops and not so many chains here (although sadly that's changing).
• the council has banned cars from the city centre at weekends so there is a huge pedestrian area. As you can imagine there was a lot of complaining at first but it's worked out well.
• good and cheap bus network, new cycle paths and racks which means fewer cars are used

@GermaneGreer an ex mining town in Yorkshire.

@OtterTails I think you raise really valid points.

Given the Climate Emergency, I would love to see some big broad brush, optimistic, futuristic policy grounded in common sense and good community values.

Here we are, absolutely knowing we need to make change, to cut down on carbon emissions incredibly fast and watching next to nothing being done - worse, more cars, worsening health - whilst our communities (not all, but many) and local environments fall apart.

Cars are an absolute scourge. Yes, I own one, but I'd happily replace with a lighter cycle/electric hybrid. I do cycle, but I would cycle more and be a great deal happier for my kids to cycle with traffic free, pollution free pathways. The first lockdown was absolute bliss in that regard.

The tax and rate systems need to change. There needs to be tax breaks for independents (a greater proportion of each £ spent going back into the community) and online taxes for the like of amazon or there will be no competition and so no choice left.

@user@user I'm trying to quote the poster from Japan and many other posts on here making great points.

Humans need real interaction. 2.5% (quoted recently, sorry I don't have source) of Global energy is now used simply for mobile phones. How much energy goes onto maintaining 'the cloud' to prop up FB, Instagram, TikTok etc etc which are really just giant advertising machines and waste so much of human time, stress mental health etc etc. It is hardly ever spoken about... So many vested interests... And yes, I am posting here so aware I am a hypocrite!

I am not saying I have the right answers or am even asking the right questions, but there has to be a better strategy. I am apolitical, but I don't see any real vision or long term thinking amongst any of the parties, UK or worldwide. Some local counsels are better than others, but it is so prosperity dependent.

There is some hope with wind, solar and green/blue hydrogen energy generation, but we also need to support community and biodiversity - and much better urban planning is a big part of that.

Online shopping may have ruined town centres but online businesses now provide a huge range of nice goods and budget priced goods and home-business models that can be very family friendly. it's not all bad.

I fully agree that car-dependence ruins urban spaces for everyone else.

Forgot to add, we do have an out of town shopping centre with a cinema but most people prefer to go to the small individual cinemas in town - there are about seven of them. People need other reasons to go into town, not just shops.

I think the amount of shops that are second hand charity shops and coffee shops in place of individual shops are disappointing.

I don’t want a coffee in town - we go out of town where there’s free car parking and I don’t have to rummage for change.

America is too spaced out though, so you have to drive to go everywhere.

I wholeheartedly agree - everything we are doing is driving a wedge into the future and for the future of our young. I hope to god they can turn it around, but so much damage is already done, and many of these issues you raise are so ground in now, most people just can't even envisage alternatives.

We have less options than we like to think, with a democratic political system that only ever throws up two sides of a similar coin (I have heard it referred to as a two-headed dictatorship run by the UK press). Our bar is set so low now and I think it blinkers us to how different it could be.

Talk about safe cycling lanes, less pollution and progressive movements such as suitable insulation/energy in UK homes seem to just fall by the wayside because we are all so busy, so distracted by the 'noise' of the media and our financial/familial concerns.
I think a lot of us get irritated by criticisms of UK culture, because we are so sad and tired of being in the spotlight for terrible things (rising poverty and homelessness, sewage disposal into our waterways, covid management and grenfell, tc) that we just want to pretend it isn't happening.
I have watched the steady erosion of so many good things (accessible dentistry, mental health provisions for kids) that it is sometimes difficult to feel positive. But we have to, or we go under.

I do also think that the internet has pulled us all further apart, whilst creating an illusion of social connectedness. A lot of loud voices in the wind, really.

I wonder if vehicles becoming a LOT louder in recent years reflects some sort of desperation to be 'heard'. I don't just mean the souped up boy racer types, but just loud, growling vehicles in general.

I don't know, just thoughts really. I wish we could progress with more focus on wellbeing, beauty in our environment (a lot of the UK looks like the eastern bloc with a few pretty cottages here and there) and health/lifestyle becoming a higher priority instead of obsessive property acquisition and endless, pointless consumerism.

Tired of hearing the same old drivel from billionaire corporations about 'creating jobs', a nice, distracting buzzword to excuse more pollution and tax breaks usually.

My sister had to move branches when the shop she worked in closed down. She could have moved to the town centre branch, about 15 minutes walk for her, but she's chosen to move to one in a village that is two bus rides away because she doesn't feel safe in the town centre after dark when she would have to walk home.

I think you picked up on many reasons why the high street is dying out, I would, from my end, add that the more senior I become at work and move up the ladder, the less time I have to go to town AT ALL. I do not have any leisure time, and if I do, it is after 6PM on a week day when the shops would have closed. Weekends are catch up days on housework. I buy 100 % of my clothes and shoes online also because local chain store have fewer choices than those in London. If I want to dine out, I would likely avoid the town centre in Kent as the food they serve is more of fast food, chips and burgers type, pizzas, which does not appeal.

@Buttalapasta

the city centre is not all commercial. A lot of people live above the shops which means it doesn't become a ghost town after closing.

This is what I was alluding to a few pages ago. Go into a UK town centre and look at the first and second floors above the shops and they're empty/derelict. All that potential housing real estate left idle. Sorting that out would help the housing crisis AND breath new life into town centres by having people living there 24/7.

@NamechangeRugby

The tax and rate systems need to change. There needs to be tax breaks for independents (a greater proportion of each £ spent going back into the community) and online taxes for the like of amazon or there will be no competition and so no choice left.

Yes, fully agree. For a start we need to deal with the high business rates of so-called "prime" retail premises. Business rates are taxed higher per square metre for retail as opposed to warehousing, so the exact same size high street shop pays many times more business rates than the same size online retail warehouse in an industrial estate. That may have been logical a few decades ago but is insane today when a business can make more profit per square metre from online operations rather than retail. Making business rates the same per square metre, regardless of usage or location would make a massive difference so retailers would pay less and online warehouses would pay more.

And yes, tax breaks for independents/small retail would be good too, but as we know, for the past 25 years, most tax breaks have been aimed at the biggest of businesses and the small ones have been basically ignored. I.e. all the different concessions for limited companies (typically bigger firms) that weren't available to smaller independents who'd usually be sole traders or partnerships!!

I visited our town centre yesterday morning and it was definitely thriving. We drove in because we were only staying for a couple of hours but would have caught the Park & Ride if going for any longer. We still have M&S and lots of High Street names, although Next has closed in the town and concentrated its efforts into it's store on the out of town retail park. We have an award winning market, a huge variety of independent stores, a mixture of eateries - I'd say more independents than chains. Although we lost our department store a few years ago and one of our shopping centres closed, there are still plenty of shops to browse.

It's a combination of all the factors people have mentioned- the other thing is that some places still do thrive but it's often because they have a uni or more than 1 , often attractive places and have tourism and have a middle class population who even if a bit more pushed these days - still spend. Problem is people in surrounding not as nice towns then gravitate to the nicer places when they go out shopping - and it creates a viscious circle.

Nearby town is doing well free parking an a central well kept bus station and many shops.

I read an article about city center here - no doing well at all and they blamed online shopping and cost of living - but center is depressing there are nice places to shop in nearby cities and town plus many out of town shopping areas that as non drivers we struggle or just have to pay to get to.

Apparently Friday and Saturday it's not too bad but rest of week entirely dead - though when we've been though Saturday not felt busy and they keep losing shops so less and less reason to go in at all.

I agree. The town centres that will survive will be the ones that have a little extra to offer. Nice buildings, good park or a walk by the river, that kind of thing. People will travel to the to a town that is more pleasant to be in, rather than going to their own town centre.

That true - IL will go on more trips much further afield. For us any actual shopping trip we go to nearby town or city. If we do longer days out it's tourist thing and later a trip round the shops.

Last town we lived in they spent money on central park - it was quite a large fun one - local museum, park and leisure center with swimming pool in same area so there was more than one reason to head in.

This place they've got rid of pools/leisure in center - cinema they had is gone so it's next town or out of town sight. Even eating in center got more and more a problem as places have close.