Some thoughts about dying town centres

[OtterTails]

I have been reading an older thread from 2022 about how many towns across the UK are becoming hollow shells of their former selves. How anti social issues have increased in many of these dying towns, with empty shops and even entire disused precincts.
My own old home town suffered a similar fate - where once there was a mix of social backgrounds and culture, old and young, this has steadily been replaced by troubled souls (addicts/ street drinkers, etc). You never see elderly people there now, and the regular shoppers disappeared after the closure of M&S about 5 years ago. One reason that likely makes this worse is that the local council placed a lot of the troubled singles in the areas around the town centre, which I think has put the last nail in the coffin.

But even though most of us are aware of big stores such as Amazon and online shopping having played a huge pat in this decline, I think there's more to it. Probably a mix of many reasons. We shop differently now, and the wold is changing, etc etc...

And then I thought (not heard this mentioned before), since so many people in the thread said that difficult road systems and parking fees have put them off going into town, maybe our increasing car use has played a big role, too.
There are far many more people on the roads now than ever before, and many older town centres don't have the space or infrastructure to manage this. So in this sense I think that the way we use our cars has altered how we choose to shop, which is quite different to say 20 years ago at the latter end of the high street boom, when many people still used public transport to go to town, even if they owned a vehicle. Or there were simply less people driving, so the roads/carparks weren't as chock full.

Just a thought, it might not just be about business rates or online shopping.

In my old town now, most of the people on the dying high street are at the lowest income bracket, which was absolutely not the case even 10 years ago. I am wondering if this is because they are less likely to own a vehicle - and the only shops that remain cater to this market.
So our larger economy is shaping the decline also.

Most of the pretty, thriving towns I know aren't particularly affluent, but they do have a mix of culture and age ranges, and people coming through often. My old home town doesn't, so the casino's and cheap shops are the only one's left.

@WhatHoJeeves independent shops are key imo.

Who wants to go somewhere to see yet again the same stuff you can find everywhere?

Parking charges and ease of access. Towns and cities also growing outwards due to new builds so for those in the new builds its quicker, cheaper and nicer to use out of town shopping centres. Also Internet shopping. Shopping in city centres is basically difficult for most people and not particularly pleasant, which is why they're in decline.

I live outside the UK (Japan) and our town centers are mostly busy, as so many people live in the center and don't drive and we all get our shopping locally, very often on the way to or from a station which is where shops and services are clustered. When people don't have so much indoor and outdoor space and are using public transport, they spend more time away from home (parks, restaurants) and it feels natural and common sense to use your local shops as you go along.

UK town centers are in a bad state in part because few people live in them and most people drive everywhere and expect to drive everywhere. The UK (other than, to a very limited extent, London and a few other places) is unusual in Europe for the way town centers have so few people living in them; there is a dislike of apartment-living, tall buildings and public transport in this country, and most people want to live in detached or semi-detached houses away from the center and go everywhere by car.

As a result, town centers are basically dependent on people from surrounding suburbs driving in to use them, But trying to compete with out-of-town shopping centers in terms of car-friendliness is a competition that town centers will always lose, as they simply don't have the space to park thousands of cars and having more cars and parking basically just ruins the town center and makes it an unpleasant space to spend time (whereas the out-of-town shopping center has tons of parking and the actual shopping/walking area of the shopping center is nicely segregated from all the cars, so it's safe and quiet, unlike a town center full of traffic and ugly car parks).

Tom Forth, a very good urbanist, has written about this kind of thing. I remember him saying that in Birmingham, some mostly British-Asian inner-city areas have high streets that are lively and doing well, because the residents mostly don't drive and are going to their local shops after going to mosque etc., and that other areas (technically better-off but with dying town centers) look at these areas and feel envy and resentment.

I think there is a lot of that in the UK. British people say vaguely that they want nice town centers and often look at cities like Tokyo or some European cities and say how nice it must be that everything seems busy and functional....but if you actually propose doing the kinds of things that makes Tokyo-type town centers possible (lots of tall apartment blocks in the center, lots of restrictions on cars in exchange for excellent public transport), they pull a face and say of course they wouldn't like that. Oh well. It's up to British people what they want to choose, but the inability of Brits to understand and accept tradeoffs is so irritating.

Exactly, also short opening hours as PP said. I work all weekday 9-5. I don't want to spend my precious weekends trawling around the shops to BUY things. Why they don't open, say 3-9 I don't know!

@Oneblindmouse You live in Altrincham - which is quite wealthy like its Cheshire neighbours. Hale, Knutsford, etc all have nice thriving town centres but also people with the £££ to splash. Because of the grammar schools as well people fall over themselves to move to Altrincham and the surrounding areas (e.g. Sale)
Similarly, while there's a big fuss about Stockport undergoing a regeneration it's always been surrounded by rich suburbs (the Heatons, Marple) but also a popular destination for Manchester/London commuters.

I used to live in Altrincham, loved it. Couldn't afford to buy, so I moved to an East Manchester town 15 min drive from Stockport. I'm in the 'nice' bit, 15 min walk away from the town centre, further away is countryside and big houses. But the rest of the town is quite deprived.

Who exactly would have the money to visit all these buzzy shops, independent cafes, etc?

We have good connections to Manchester via bus and train, also Glossop. So I just hop on those.

I know that Altrincham transformed and used to be called a 'ghost town' etc but it's always been a wealthy area. And there are other areas with thriving town centres, Bury and Buxton for example. The latter does well with tourists in the summer, enough to keep all year around.

In the shittier towns, the new entertainments tend to be very 'man focused'. In My home town now there are plenty of new football/rugby related venues, sports entertainment complexes and shops, bowling, go carts, and muscle focused gyms. Whilst I am aware that these hobbies should not need to be gendered, they are, in many of these areas, most definitely provided for same male demographic that thunders through the streets in heavily modded vehicles.
The only thing that might be considered traditionally female are a small number of remaining clothes stores - new look and primark.

Where I live now, it is far more balanced and you see a lot more women and girls out and about with friends. I don't know where anyone would go 'for a meal' in my old town centre. McDonald's?

All of the decent places to eat or explore are tacked on around out of town retail parks. The town centre is deafeningly loud due to speeding cars, motorbikes and very aggressive drunks. Let's just say if I had kids I wouldn't take them there.

Something I would add: America is so, so much wealthier than the UK. Like, Americans are, in general, wealthier than Brits by a massive margin (I think individual wealth is about 70% higher in Americans). And yet America mostly has pretty awful, depressing town centers too. Not surprising - Americans' greater wealth results in much bigger houses, gardens and cars. There isn't much incentive for them to spend much time in public spaces, and increasingly they don't. So public spaces have become hollowed out, and increasingly are dominated by the kind of people who have nowhere else to go. That should give us all food for thought.

https://walkingtheworld.substack.com/p/why-the-us-cant-have-nice-things Why the US Can't Have Nice Things (by an American writer)

It's not just about wealth, and in fact it's probably mostly not about wealth. It's more about people's patterns of living. If the UK wants decent, non-depressing town centers, trade-offs will have to be accepted.

https://www.pps.org/article/the-power-of-10

I’m interested in this concept.

Covid actually helped regenerate the city centre here to an extent, by making covered outdoor seating areas for restaurants on pedestrianised streets. I live in a small university city, which has a good arts/festivals/music scene, excellent pubs and restaurants in the city centre, which to an extent combat the effect of shopping moving out to a suburban retail park, though that is certainly noticeable, as is a significant number of rough sleepers. I don’t drive and live close to the city centre, and that’s where I socialise, eat out, see films, go to galleries etc. I think urban planners need to encourage more people to live in city centres, and to focus on good public transport, including Park and Ride schemes, and on making city centres pleasant places to get to and linger in. The people who live in my area are pretty affluent (big concentration of senior medics as two hospitals nearby) but tend to value proximity to the city centre, and to walk and cycle everywhere, unless actually leaving town.

I grew up near Parbold (Wigan area), the housing there is quite expensive for the area, and it is a good drive to anywhere now, not to mention public transport being thin on the ground. You would need a vehicle to live on these pretty outskirts of Wigan because there are some dangerous roads with no pavements for miles. Likewise with many of the old ex mill towns in the area.

Even in the town centre the rents are sky high (on a par with lovely tourist areas in the North) but extremely run down and depressing.

A pp mentioned councils housing the poorer, troubled people in Wigan town centre as potentially a good idea, but it is due to there being a high concentration of 1 bed flats than anywhere else in the borough. As you enter the town from the east now it's just an endless stream of smashed windows and groups of men hanging around.

I am in Shrewsbury now, can be hectic in the town centre but very very busy, thriving and alive. It still feels far more exciting and preferable to the retail parks in the suburbs where most only go for 'big shops'.

Who has time to go to the butchers, the bakers, whilst working full time? Supermarkets are a convenience and we live in a society that crave convenience.

Came to say, butchers are still very much a thing. How often do you see halal butchers? Lots of black and Asian etc families still go here and they're very much in business. White British people could to- its a choice not to.

Much like getting the car to the shops and people moaning that there aren't enough buses. Would you really be getting the bus if they improved the service? Probably not.

But they have massive inequality. Hence all the homelessness, which is the same way we're heading. People don't stop going out because they have big houses, or go our because they have small houses.
In any case it's a question of spending, isn't it? Now I don't claim to be an economist or researcher (and indeed the article you posted was just one person's opinion anyway) but in my deprived town there's plenty of outdoor opportunity. Park, countryside, waterside canals.
None of these generate income. Of course there's the odd van selling hot chocolate or whatever but that's not enough.

@MissTwinklePaws our local butchers do delivery now!
Also people that make the effort for religious reasons - well they're not doing it to 'support local business' are they? I don't see why others have to go out of their way. Same if it was a kosher butchers.

Who has time to go to the butchers, the bakers, whilst working full time?

In our town, those are the (few) shops that still exist and that are thriving, even though the rest of the high street is mostly boarded up now.

The butchers always has a massive queue out of the door, the three bakeries are always absolutely rammed - especially at lunchtime when people go for sandwiches or pies or sausage rolls.

So, to answer your question - lots of people!

People don't stop going out because they have big houses, or go our because they have small houses.

Actually, I think they do, to an extent: it's noticeably how WFH has been especially sticky in the United States where people are much more likely to have very large homes. Americans really are doing a lot less hanging out and going out than they used to. Even the restaurant revival post-COVID has relied to a large extent on takeout and drive-thru, where people sit in their cars to eat, often alone.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/03/restaurant-post-pandemic-recovery/677675/

I live in a flat in the center, so when I meet friends there isn't the option of sitting in the garden; we use shared spaces and parks... and use our local shops and services along the way.

Barely any of our buses run anymore. So even if older / elderly / non driving people wanted to go in they couldn’t get there. Parking is costly. The bus at the end of the road to me barely comes down this road anymore even though it is supposed to.

we have no shops left. And the council do nothing about it. I don’t go in anymore. Instead I go to Bluewater which is about an hours drive away.

Rochdale, for all the deserved bad press it gets, is really trying to regenerate the town centre. It now has a decent, clean shopping street, metrolink, a few new cafes/chains including nandos, lots of decent independent pubs and restaurants, new cinema and crazy golf, new cheap muli story to park on, even a Hilton hotel! Now the town hall has reopened it should attract a few tourists too. I don't often praise it but it's actually quite nice to visit now, and importantly it's always busy.

I just want to add: it's not a straight-up choice between "traditional butchers and bakers" vs "out of town supermarket"; small neighborhood supermarkets are a huge part of the landscape in successful, well-populated urban neighborhoods. Although things like bakers are popular as well. If you live along the same street and use public transport, of course you have time to visit them - I pop in and get fresh bread from mine when walking back from the station.

@GermaneGreer I don't live in Altrincham. I live in Bury, as I mentioned at the beginning of my post.

I lived in Stockport from 1985 to 2021 and watched the steady decline of Stockport town centre with dismay. Thankfully Stockport is now being regenerated. Time will tell whether it will recover. The fact that their new transport interchange is ready for the Metrolink is greatly in its favour.
A previous poster mentioned that Birmingham has a large Asian population who shop in town centres. I had not considered that but it makes sense as Bury also has a large Asian population.

That sounds lovely!
It's all about playing on the location strengths - are the visitors from the 'nicer' suburbs of Rochdale.
Despite what I said about my area it's close to Manchester, close to the peak district, 20 min drive (no traffic!) each way. Handy for the motorway too. It's good place for commuters priced out of other areas

Wish we had a metrolink but it'll probably go through the neighbouring town... which I wanted to buy in but sadly no train.

I'm part of the problem as buy virtually everything online but I had to go into my town centre recently for the first time in a few years and was horrified at what a shithole it has become.

Street drinkers, addicts, sleeping bags and detritus in shop doorways, what I guess are Roma women and children begging while men smoke, cat-call and look intimidating. Empty shops, others boarded up.

Add to that the woeful public transport and the terrifying rates of public violence, knife crime, shoplifting and attacks on shop staff and I'm not planning to visit again anytime soon.

I have a depressing vision that all of these types of ex industrial towns will end up like ghettos. Those who can will leave.
In fact, I lived in Hebden Bridge for a while in my 30's; a regenerated (artsy/progressive) ex mill town in the north.....phenomenally expensive place to live, whilst the lower income, troubled areas of Hebden sit uneasily alongside the media lovies and artisanal restaurants .. There's definitely a 'tension'.

I don't like the cloned town thing in the UK, whether they are struggling or thriving. Those that are succeeding all have a similar look, likewise. There's a sort of shrinking of variety in our towns all across the UK.

We are becoming less and less social in general - all going around in our individual little metal boxes on wheels, wary of other boxes on wheels, and determined to have our singular needs met. This contrasts with Japan, as a pp mentioned. What stands out to me in the UK regardless of the area, whether good or bad, is that no one seems to like anyone else and can't stand those less fortunate having even the tiniest slice of the pie.

I blame our toxic press/media. I do think it has drastically shaped our obsession with hierarchies and property.

Oops sorry! It does sound exactly like Altrincham though!
It has a lot of Asians but I don't think it's the same native British (usually Bangladeshi/Pakistani) descent that people are thinking of. It's usually people working at the large Barclays (that brings over a lot of contractors from the India tech centre), and more recently immigrants form Hong Kong.

My current town has a lot of Asians (Bangledesh ethnicity) ,we even have a mosque but I don't see any boost to town centre shopping.

Why they don't open, say 3-9 I don't know!

Because nobody goes. Everyone says they want earlier or later opening times but when it's available, none of them ever bother with it - at least, not in big enough quantities to make it worthwhile for the owners.

Strong words and quite a negative viewpoint. I'm not saying there's no truth in it but it's not entirely accurate.
Where I live in Yorkshire I wouldn't say no one likes anyone else. People are friendly and chatty. I often see complete strangers chatting on the bus. There's a community spirit and quite a few neighbourhood events. I've been made to feel welcome as a southerner.

It's a really mixed crowd, typical of Rochdale. I spend a lot more time there than I used to, I would typically travel into Bury or Manchester to shop to avoid Rochdale but now I don't need to. I think the fact chains like Nandos, Starbucks, Hilton, Cosy Club etc are choosing Rochdale to open stores when a lot of high streets are closing branches is positive, although I'd like to see some more independents move into the 'new town'.

I agree!
@OtterTails Not trying to make the thread too much about me but people are so much nicer here compared to where I moved from.
If I accidentally bump into someone in an aisle and say 'excuse me sorry' they reply back 'no worries lovey' and smile at me.
People stop to chat when they see me out in the front garden, most buses stop and wait for me 😄If I smile at people in the street they smile back.
Nobody even talked to me all the years we lived on that 'naice' street in Altrincham and within days of moving here we got Christmas cards/invitations to coffee and asking if we needed any help.

I wasn't happy to move and always telling DH we'd move back when we had more equity/higher salaries but now I'll probably stay put. 'Depressing town centre' aside there are a lot of other nice things about the area.

There was an article about the market research Starbucks conducts before opening in a new location... this guy made a killing buying properties near them because they always went up in value.
That was the US, don't know how true it is in the UK though. Just realised there's one near us, but in the hotel on the other side of town. LOL