Some thoughts about dying town centres

[OtterTails]

I have been reading an older thread from 2022 about how many towns across the UK are becoming hollow shells of their former selves. How anti social issues have increased in many of these dying towns, with empty shops and even entire disused precincts.
My own old home town suffered a similar fate - where once there was a mix of social backgrounds and culture, old and young, this has steadily been replaced by troubled souls (addicts/ street drinkers, etc). You never see elderly people there now, and the regular shoppers disappeared after the closure of M&S about 5 years ago. One reason that likely makes this worse is that the local council placed a lot of the troubled singles in the areas around the town centre, which I think has put the last nail in the coffin.

But even though most of us are aware of big stores such as Amazon and online shopping having played a huge pat in this decline, I think there's more to it. Probably a mix of many reasons. We shop differently now, and the wold is changing, etc etc...

And then I thought (not heard this mentioned before), since so many people in the thread said that difficult road systems and parking fees have put them off going into town, maybe our increasing car use has played a big role, too.
There are far many more people on the roads now than ever before, and many older town centres don't have the space or infrastructure to manage this. So in this sense I think that the way we use our cars has altered how we choose to shop, which is quite different to say 20 years ago at the latter end of the high street boom, when many people still used public transport to go to town, even if they owned a vehicle. Or there were simply less people driving, so the roads/carparks weren't as chock full.

Just a thought, it might not just be about business rates or online shopping.

In my old town now, most of the people on the dying high street are at the lowest income bracket, which was absolutely not the case even 10 years ago. I am wondering if this is because they are less likely to own a vehicle - and the only shops that remain cater to this market.
So our larger economy is shaping the decline also.

Most of the pretty, thriving towns I know aren't particularly affluent, but they do have a mix of culture and age ranges, and people coming through often. My old home town doesn't, so the casino's and cheap shops are the only one's left.

Pedestrianization at the same time as there are loads of people on NHS waiting lists waiting for knee and hip replacements. These mobility issues arent classed as permanent no matter how long you wait and wait on the list for it to be done so it doesnt qualify for a blue badge

The shopping street near me that is doing well has a butchers, greengrocer and florist and crucially shirt term free parking and lots of passing commuter traffic.

Problem is people in surrounding not as nice towns then gravitate to the nicer places when they go out shopping - and it creates a viscious circle.

This is so true. I live in an outer London suburb with a mixed demographic that used to be a fairly pleasant place to live but which, since Brexit/Covid/COL crisis has been getting progressively grimmer.

We, along with all our more affluent friends and family, now largely bypass our local shops, cinema, leisure centres and parks in favour of those in surrounding areas that feel cleaner, safer and generally nicer to visit. Those who can are opting to pay for private gyms etc. And our local facilities continue to get progressively worse, and the cycle continues.

We’re aiming to move out within the next couple of years to live in one of the places we’re currently regularly driving out to - a more middle class town, where the critical mass of those with a bit more money means less visible decline.

Yes, it's noticeable that Uni towns/cities do seem to be thriving, mainly because they usually have far better public transport and a "captive" audience of students who aren't readily able to go shopping in out of town retail parks, so they tend to shop and socialise in their Uni town/city.

I live in one Uni city and son works in another Uni city, and both are vibrant, but it's noticeable they're far quieter during the uni holidays, luckily 1 is a top tourist city so tourists make up the numbers in Summer, though not as much at Christmas and Easter.

My teenage son got the bus to our nearest decent sized town in the week. Being autistic he has a kind of naive, innocent view of the world. So when he came back and said the place was "full of dossers and stank of weed" it made me think bloody hell, what a sad decline. I'm not going to name the town. There's no point. If you've seen one town in the UK you've seen 90% of the rest. Pedestrianised shit holes that reek of piss and disappointment.

I am not sure all uni towns are thriving, although it may depend upon which uni....Preston for example has many of the same issues as Wigan, as does Bolton and to some extent Lancaster.

The class element, maybe, to a point.
However, I have experience of predominantly working class neighbourhoods that are lovely and fairly affluent, I think the troubled families and anti social elements of Wigan are not typical 'working class' - more mental health related, those who have fallen right down the ladder, or people from generations of addiction problems and unemployability. Most of them aren't working (not to malign the unemployed, these people are suffering severe deprivation on many levels that aren't just financial).

We have a largely unnamed or disparagingly named 'underclass' in the UK, that the press loves to point and laugh at. Perhaps they are descendants of the previous manual workers prior to these industries closing. They are different to the typical working class as they did or could not adapt. Or there wasn't the assistance or ability to move on and find work elsewhere. This is not my personal heritage, and I do not have the answers of how to fix it.

I rarely see those people where I am now, and it is easy to forget that they are there when it isn't visible to you. But they are there, all across the country. Again, this is not exclusively a northern thing.

Yes - smell of weed ubiquitous. A few months ago, a bloke strode past me on his mobile, loudly telling someone (and everyone within a six foot radius) that he'd bought heroin for a party.

Our town is ok as big city, the smaller surrounding high streets are dire. Our local one has a small supermarket, pound shop. 3 card shops and charity shops. No wilko, peacocks, new look, select, and others all gone. I used to go regularly.

However im afraid I've used amazon far more than i should.

An item i needed i would have had to drive to city, 20 min, £3 cheapest car park, go hunting around john lewis to find it ( £18.99)and drive home.
OR same item amazon £19.99 and took 5 min to order and delivered free.

Likewise with Next i buy the year delivery, i shop for school uniform, kids clothes and random stuff monthly. To go drive and pay to park. Its not worth it.

@OtterTails

I am not sure all uni towns are thriving, although it may depend upon which uni....Preston for example has many of the same issues as Wigan, as does Bolton and to some extent Lancaster.

I know Lancaster well. Yes, it's suffering a decline, but the thing is, how much worse would it be without the universities??

I live in Sutton Coldfield in the West Midlands. Birmingham council. Plenty of money. Our town centre is on its last legs having lost M&S, BHS and a host of other high street shops. The centre is pedestrianised which it has been for many years and is on bus and train routes.

I think the problem is partly cars, with a large retail park about 20 minutes away and Birmingham city centre 20 minutes in the other direction. Parking is not free and otherwise not widely available.

But I think it's just not a nice enough area anymore to compete with the convenience of online and places like Solihull with John Lewis which can be a day out. It's sad. There is a lot of talk of regeneration but not much action.

Probably doesn't help that the labour council dislikes conservative Sutton and seems to want to do what it can to destroy it!!

Sutton folk generally have money that is, not the bankrupt council

My town is quite vibrant and has a Waitrose, three Co-Ops, and an Aldi. Great market town as well. Parking is a problem, though it's easy to walk to. Also trains direct to Manchester.

Where my mother lives in Northern Ireland is a very vibrant town centre with free parking for an hour plus an outlet centre that is fantastic.

The major town closest to me isn't great at all. Which is such a shame.

My town centre is a complete shit hole compared to what it was 20 years ago, according to locals (I wasn’t there at the time). It’s all vape shops, mobile phone repairs, charity shops, one Boots and a Co-op. It’s full of oddballs who hang around it all day vaping, drinking and harassing the public. Whenever I walk through it I’m hit in the face by clouds of smoke from their disgusting vapes and/or joints which are openly smoked.

My hometown is a pretty market town and it had a fairly average centre when I grew up there, but they’ve thrown money at it and now it’s truly lovely. Cafe culture, independent shops, as well as the main chain shops you would want and good pubs. Pretty paved areas where you can have coffee with a view. I miss it!

What is it about vape shops that signifies a troubled town? Surely many people vape from all walks of life. Are more affluent people buying their vape stuff online?
I have also never understood what a phone unlocking shop actually does.

The casino's bother me more than anything, and in Wigan the excessive drinking, and I don't mean regular daytime pints.

There's this newish bar opened behind the North Western train station in the railway arches; people sit on the pavement outside of it supping through the afternoon, blasted by congested traffic from cars and lorries, and noise that could shatter an eardrum. It is quite a hectic T-junction, I have no idea how they're not choking in the fumes.
Apart from that there's a Wetherspoons (once quite nice) and a few dives usually spilling out pub brawls.

Every time I drive in my heart sinks. Everyone I know there tries to avoid it now. But sometimes you have to go if you live in the borough as the council offices/banks/sorting office is there.

Vape shops almost always look trashy and make the high street look shit. It's less about what they are, and more about how they present.

I went to a mobile/vape shops this weekend in an old building, timber shopfront and that particular shop leaves no negative impression. Most of them have giant (illegal) TV advertisements, cheap looking signage... it looks very downmarket. Almost worse than just having a Stan James.

I've visited the US and Canada recently and despite us all going on about their large shopping malls I found that there was loads of on street, wide spaced, free parking outside shops. The US is very user friendly with a car and we need to do the same to save our shops. Free car parks and the ability to park outside a shop to pop in quick would make so much difference to so many shops and their customers.

I think this has got to be a factor. I'd like to go to the physical shops when I need things, but I simply do not have the time. Who does nowadays, when two full-time incomes are needed to survive? Even if the high street did consist of a butcher, a baker and a greengrocers, who has time to actually do their food shopping in them? When online shopping exists so I don't actually need to spend all that extra time just shopping, I'll save the time so I can at least go out for a nice walk on the weekend. Maybe shopping is a leisure activity of choice for some, but it isn't for me, and I have to be quite choosy in how I use my leisure time as it's so little. Bring on the 4 day week for all! Maybe then we'll see a revival of town centres.

"What is it about vape shops that signifies a troubled town? Surely many people vape from all walks of life. Are more affluent people buying their vape stuff online?"

Affluent people are far less likely to smoke/vape so have no need of vape shops, hence why vape shops don't bother trying to look posh/upmarket.

Unfortunately you know when a high street is declining when it is full of vape shops, charity shops, Asian tat shops and betting shops.

Our town centre is an absolute disgrace and has been regularly on the news about how awful it is. When it was built flats were incorporated in to it and multiple office spaces which have all been empty for years and the building has been left to rot. In a recent storm the roof blew off in several places and only certain parts could be accessed, also the post office was shut for weeks leaving some pensioners panicking.

our town centre now is full of kids terrorising people or pensioners who are unable to travel further afield. There are literally hundreds of parking spaces spread over several car parks but it’s a max 2hr stay and you cannot re-enter any car park within an hour or you are fined.

Have spoken with DH about potentially moving county’s as there is nothing here for our children except overpriced soft plays. They even decided to shut down multiple libraries and swimming pools in our area but the backlash was awful so they reversed their decision and pretty much said well don’t complain when we cut funding elsewhere.

And I think this is why the naice middle class towns will survive.

We have a town centre dying on its arse with a population of working class and squeezed middle people all working every hour with little extra cash.

The next town over is far more middle class and is full of people who have retired, don’t need to work outside the home, or do those jobs where they knit their own yoghurt.
The next town has just had a lovely new bakery open, simply because they have people floating about with money to spend.

Because of shops like that people chose to go there. And the cycle continues.

Interesting!
I have never associated vaping itself with declining streets, but then I agree about the signage often being tatty, they do look cheap.
There's a hilarious and rather funky one in the Lakes called 'the vape district'.

But just like alcohol, dependency on a drug has no class; one is far more likely to remain functional and keep it invisible than the other. Many people in affluent areas vape, of all social backgrounds, it is a fairly standard route to quitting smoking, at least in my experience. I don' currently know anyone who does, but it is fairly common.

@TempsPerdu to give you an idea , here in Bath at the weekend it's full of people from Chippenham , Swindon, Trowbridge, melksham, keynsham, midsomer Norton - as well as locals - and in the week busy too with general tourists and the uni students as well as locals and when the uni students aren't here it's still busy because it's tourist season or the bloody Xmas market- so it's pretty full on most of the year- - people come especially at weekend as it's got all the chains (apart from a Johnlewis) plus lots of independents, lots of family and couple eating options. Enough pubs and bars to satisfy the most ardent drinker and fantastically good charity shops for those that enjoy browsing them (many do) - a lovely canal river walk and really good parks. Really good buskers and just has a good 'vibe' especially on a nice day even though yes it does have a fair bit of the 'spare any change' folks -

I think many in their spare time these days don't just want a quick nip to high street, in and out 3 shops and home- they want a bit of a 'vibe' - a coffee and a snack somewhere nice, just a 'feel good' atmosphere because to be frank very few places these days in the UK do have a 'feel good' feeling. So people are prepared to go beyond their local high st to get that

It's not perfect here by the way, it's expensive to live, we do have a moderate amount of homeless and some empty shops and idiots that throw litter around and some weed smoking in public but the more I have to pop to other places the more I see is that's it's in an 'affable bubble' and the same applies to a few other nicer places too

@Crikeyalmighty Yes you’re absolutely right; it’s the positive, affluent vibe that everyone’s looking for, and such places are few and far between nowadays (university towns do seem to be the most reliable places for this).

To be fair, I do use my local high street more than most people we know - we live a five minute walk away so it’s super convenient for us - and I try to support local shops as much as possible. But it just feels so bleak, and when DD6 is with me I’m especially conscious that it seems edgy in all the wrong ways - always feels like things are about to kick off, and you’re running the gauntlet of all the homeless people and druggies and after-school anti-mugging community patrols (lovely idea, but so depressing that they’re needed in the first place).

Most of our friends don’t even venture in now, and just drive elsewhere. We’re also close to a train station and used to go into London a lot, but since covid off-peak and weekend trains only run every half hour and are horribly unreliable, so it feels like we’re paying a London premium to live in a crime-ridden shithole without even benefiting from decent connections to elsewhere.

We’re lucky to have the opportunity to vote with our feet and move elsewhere, but it’s a wrench because DP and I both grew up here.

I grew up in the 1990s and regularly spent time 'going shopping' as a teenager - partly because you had to do it on a regular basis in order to have clothes on your body, shoes on your feet or a birthday card to give a friend. There was no other option. I do feel sad at the decline of town centres - the anti-social behaviour is pretty alarming - but not particularly sentimental about the demise of some of those big brand names.

The High Street brand-name retail experience (TopShop, Dorothy Perkins, Debenhams etc) wasn't always that great to be honest. I recall shop assistants being off-hand and unhelpful, sizes being unavailable, hours on your feet, shops being overcrowded, quality being poor, queuing for changing rooms and - worst of all - store credit being freely pushed by shop assistants. How many young people ended up in debt for decades due to taking out credit agreements at the till?

People complain about coffee shops in town centres, but for many years there was very little available apart from pubs or McDonalds. And that was in an era when pubs were far less welcoming to women! So I think that coffee shops, as a safe and family-friendly place to go, are a fairly good thing.

I regularly shop in my local small town which has plenty of independent shops, but think that town centres, like anything else, have to adapt to survive. Some of the suggestions, like reinstating housing in town centres, are good ideas.

Crucially, service has to be top notch. Even in independent shops, you notice that employees can become complacent. To give a couple of examples, I used to shop quite regularly in a local clothing shop - buying some trousers one weekday, I was obliged to re-dress myself several times to get different sizes from the rack, while a gaggle of employees were just chatting at the till. I still bought the trousers, but felt a bit miffed about the lack of service. I then bought an item of clothing as a gift at Christmas - they made a difficulty when I wanted to return it. The shop closed about a year later and I didn't really feel it as a great loss, even though I was exactly their target market.

Agreed!
There's no point in pushing people to 'support local businesses', going out of their way to do so. It's the businesses' job to provide what customers want, not the other way around!

Probably outing but where I live now does have a couple of quirky shops in the ageing (usually deserted) indoor market. A vinyl/memorabilia shop, Lego shop. These do a roaring online trade as well so not solely dependent on walk-ins.

Can rates be lowered for, say home-based businesses looking to expand, instead of leaving units empty? What will people go 'into town' for? If there's no longer the need, then the desire has to be created, as PP pointed out people want a 'nice vibe'.