Bright child who doesn't quite deliver

[Strombolilara]

DD (almost 6.5 yo) in Y1 is very capable academically, particularly strong in maths. Over the last couple of months she's gone from Y1 stuff to Y3, constantly asking me at home to 'do maths' and loves it. She can for instance mentally add 3 digit numbers with regrouping, do quarters of 3 digit numbers, almost fluent with times tables, fractions etc. She learns very quickly and takes it to the next level.

However, at school, despite them working on a much lower level she doesn't quite deliver. She's one of the slowest in the class, almost never finishes her work and therefore she's not even in the top group for maths, although she says it's all quite easy. Yesterday they were given a little exercise where they had to add missing numbers in a square box of 1 to 100 and she was one of the last ones to put her work down and she hasn't even finished. She seemed upset about it enough to tell us. This is not the first time it happens.

I do suspect some SEN but no one listens to us. Her teacher reported last term that she zones out quite a bit and is a bit slow and that there are things to keep an eye on but nothing too worrying. I've been thinking about ASD or inattentive ADHD.

I can see her confidence slipping a bit and I just don't know how to support her. How can I child who is so capable not deliver? I was a straight A student (in a different country) although I don't think I was as smart as her, definitely wasn't doing 3 digit number additions in my head at the age of 6. In fact I only started school at 6.5 yo.

She is perfect in her behaviour at school, very polite and kind, great listening, but very defiant and a bit hyper at home.

(I did speak to an NHS pediatrician about it, but they've totally dismissed my concerns as there are no obvious signs of struggle).

Can anyone relate to this?

When DD had her autism assessment she also did something called the WISC V and this tests cognitive ability and showed that DD was extremely gifted in some areas but her processing speed and working memory were 'just' average so although she was meeting targets because of her academic ability the school stated to put things in place to work on her weaker areas which meant she's hitting her potential instead of coasting.

The outcome of the WISC was more practically helpful than the autism diagnosis which largely allowed DD to understand herself more.

At Primary DD got pulled up for not writing at length in extended writing and now she's older whilst she's very skilled at English as a tool, art skills etc to actually come up with something freestyle and of her own imagination just simply doesn't happen but we now know that's the autism.

this is how one of my friend's kids got diagnosed, through not being able to get written maths on paper although he was fine at doing things in his head. He also did ok at learning to read and write and wasn't diagnosed until he was 9 or 10. I would read into it and keep an eye on it as people just assuming it's about spelling things wrong and not being able to read, but a lot is also to do with ability to think logically and particularly how you structure written work etc too. His dad is probably undiagnosed too, i remember proof-reading reports for him at uni and it was like an explosion of his brain on a page!! I have a colleague who's dyslexic and her reports are the same - you can just about work out what's she's trying to say if you know what it's about but anyone who didn't wouldn't have a clue. The structure is all over the place, nothing flows in the right order and the same thing is repeated in several places.

Thank you for your reply. Can I ask you how old was your DD when she got her ASD assessment and was it private? Also what kind of practical things did the school put in place for her?

Oh thank you for sharing that! Definitely something to keep an eye on especially considering family history.

If she can do it 1:1 with you it's not a cognitive issue.

But that does leave lots of other things it could be.

A pp has already mentioned eyesight - if she struggles to see the board etc then she won't do as well in school.

Issues with hearing can also be a problem - so she might be able to hear 1:1 fine but the noisy classroom is more difficult.

So the standard advice before getting any expensive tests is get an eye test and get her hearing checked.

If they are both fine, then there are other possible issues:

She might write very slowly. If she does the maths with you verbally and doesn't write anything down this could be the issue. In which case you can work on her fine motor skills and handwriting,

I'd check those before going down the ad(h)d route.

That sounds a lot like my DS.
Extremely bright at home but unable to concentrate or produce work at school.
Turns out he was overwhelmed by the environment and zoning out as a coping mechanism. The underlying reason was ASD.
We ended up home educating him for a bit and he'll be returning to school in a specialist unit next year.

DD was 14 and we went Private, she'd always been quirky but could have been because she was an only child so I saved up for a couple of years knowing that during secondary she'd either need an assessment , braces or we could go on holiday with it after secondary

The private clinic specialised in girls and women with autism, it was a lovely experience with diagnosis 6 weeks after making contact with the clinic opposed to 4+ years for NHS which is normally not a positive experience.

Dd's autism is only an issue for her, she has no challenging behaviours and is a dream to parent as she likes rules and will follow them with no issue. As soon as she started Secondary she started struggling with the school environment.

In terms of support she has various things in place to help with the school environment, toilet and corridor passes, access to a quiet area during unstructured time. Academically support wise she goes to a small room during all school testing, instructions are presented to her in writing IE they print the PowerPoint slide so it's directly Infront of her, giving her instructions directly to her with no chatty waffle just straight and to the point.

If giving verbal instructions at home I do one step at a time even though she can do multistep instructions finds it stressful - written list works far better so I'll WhatsApp her instead and we've written job lists for routine things like tiding her bedroom.

@Singleandproud Thank you so much for sharing that! So happy to hear you've found the right help for her and she's thriving 💗

Classrooms tend to be overwhelmingly bright with eye catching wall displays, windows to the outside some of which can be onto the school field or playground. I describe KS1 as frenetic as children cannot sit still, they move about in their chairs, play with the laces or velcro on their shoes, lots of children also stim, so they tap their feet or wrap and unwrap their feet around their chair legs repeatedly, do repetitive behaviours with their hands, they watch what other children are doing and struggle to stay focused. They are 6 years old. It is hard to stay on task all the time.

That being said, check her eyesight and hearing. Ds2 started wearing glasses at 5 despite passing the rudimentary eye test in reception. Also with the maths just be careful because if you push too far there might be nowhere to go with it although private schools are better at accommodating this at secondary. Mastery is better than advancing through later year group work. Ask the teacher for help with that.

How is her spelling? If she struggles with spelling it could be dyslexia. If writing down/slow writing it could be dyspraxia, It sounds like her mental maths is much faster than what she can put down on paper.

Remember that capability and performance won't be the same at all times. We have this strange idea about children that because they have showed us they can do something one time, maybe when they were feeling really on top of their game, that means they have ticked that box in development, they have that skill now and they can perform that skill in every single possible environment and situation, so if they aren't doing it then they are simply refusing and being difficult.

But that's not really realistic. Think about your own performance - you know for example that if you've been up and down all night and you have a bit of a headache and you're worried about one of your DC, you won't do as well at work (for example) compared to a day where you've got loads of energy, you're looking forward to a holiday that's coming up and you had a lovely chat with your best friend the evening before.

Or some nights you can come home and cook a dinner with multiple ingredients that need chopping and turning and watching and timing, and some nights you just go "Ugh, it's a frozen pizza/chicken nuggets day".

It's the same for children. But what stresses them out or uses up their processing abilities can be different to what we experience as adults. For example, a school classroom might be very noisy and distracting with lots of difficult to block out stimulus. The lighting might be uncomfortable, the uniform might be itchy, she might be worried about a behaviour system or a bully or a teacher.

It could be some kind of underlying neurodivergence. But I think for now since a diagnosis seems unlikely, unless you are willing to go private, it would make sense to look into what's different about these two situations, one where she excels and one where she struggles?

The Self-Reg framework by Stuart Shanker, and the Collaborative Problem Solving model by Ross Greene are both really great tools here to try and find out what is going on. I have heard good things about "The Out of Sync Child" too but I haven't read it yet.

You could also look at what are typical struggles with ADHD, ASD, dyscalculia, dyslexia, dyspraxia, in case it pings any lightbulbs. It's not like a diagnosis would magically get you anything different anyway (except maybe ADHD medication, but I think they would be reluctant to medicate if there are no significant issues) - but I think the above tools may well be helpful in finding out what exactly is getting in her way and you can then communicate this to school. And if at some point in the future someone says - hey - all these things which help her, this seems sort of consistent with X condition - then you could look into it with a bit more likelihood of it going somewhere useful.

Anecdotally - I was like this at school and I was diagnosed with inattentive ADHD as an adult.

I was just about to bring up SEN until you mentioned it first! As a child, I was really bright but I struggled in the school environment due to distractions. I suspect that I may have high functioning autism. I found noises and sunlight to be very distracting, and sometimes had to cover my ears or zone out to focus. It was much harder for me to concentrate on my learning compared to my peers, even though I excelled at home. As a result, my grades suffered and I eventually gave up. I think it could be beneficial to discuss potential adjustments with the school so that your daughter can thrive and reach her full potential. Have you ever considered the option of part time home educating?

@Strombolilara DD was reading well before she started school, we were on short chapter books at home, her comprehension was excellent,on the WISC V she scored extremely gifted in this area...in school she didn't show this skill at all in reception and her teachers looked a me like I was that parent about my PFB, think she was just too taken in by the school environment overwhelming all of her other senses.

She flew through the book bands in infants and as a teen in the unlikely event she picks up a novel likes classics but rarely ever finishes a book. She does like non fiction and facts though

If your daughter likes maths try puzzles, not jigsaws but logical ones preferably where you have to manipulate things to make them fit Think Fun do a good range on Amazon

I think you're being unfair to the OP. Per the OP, her daughter loves maths and is asking for more. The daughter is upset about how she is doing at school. And the OP is asking for strategies to support her. Far from boasting or pressuring her, she's worried her daughter has additional needs that need to be addressed to help her.

As for kids not knowing what 'advanced maths' is... clearly, it's advanced for a child her age, which is what is relevant. Also, maths is an odd subject where occasionally a child is many years ahead of their peers.

Hate to "my child" it... but at six my child was devouring pi, conditional probability, the Monty Hall problem, etc. etc. Why? Because he loved it, and asked me to teach him chapters of our DK maths book each night instead of stories.

Not my kind of childhood! But for him it there was nothing more exciting. He was slow to speak and found writing difficult for a long time, and still has little interest in fiction. But he loved maths.

He still loves maths, but his least favourite subject at school? Maths.

Thank you very much for your comment, very helpful, I'm taking everything on board. I'll try and read the books suggested too.

if she is doing such high level stuff at home could it be that she is totally bored by the stuff which is way below her level? Zoning out and daydreaming is probably because she's bored out of her brain if she's way ahead. This is something bright kids do. Maybe worth chatting to teacher and asking her to give her some different higher level stuff to focus on otherwise it could get worse.

I think she needs to be seen by an educational psychologist. That's what they're there for. Can you afford to go privately?

I absolutely would not trust the school's advice, from personal experience.

I'd be interested to know what her co-ordination is like.

Thank you, I can understand a child can be overwhelmed by the environment and not perform as well as they are capable of. I think it happens a lot particularly at Reception. DD was a bit like that but I thought she settled really well into Y1.

Are you able to recommend some good maths puzzle books? I think DD would really enjoy that.
At the moment we are just using Y3 school workbooks which aren't the most fun.

Yes, I agree with not trusting the school fully. She's on a waiting list for a private Educational psychologist. Hoping to see someone in a few months time.

You mean physically?! She is fine, she's not amazing at sports but can ride a bike, swim, bounce a ball, and currently working on hula hooping. The PE teachers have suggested she does more skipping which she hasn't quite got yet, as it helps coordination. So maybe she does have some issues there?!

I would add that getting a private diagnosis may seem expensive but you would be saving a fortune in terms of the length of time interventions would be needed for (the later the diagnosis the longer support is needed for), not to mention psychological and emotional support down the line if she is showing signs of stress now.

nrich.maths.org/frontpage

NRich are extremely good for maths problem solving. If you choose ks1 you'll get appropriate level content but they go all the way up.

Nearly all of the problems (except the live ones) have solutions posted but be aware that the solutions may not approach the problem in the same way you or your child did

Yes, it's something I'd like to speak to the teacher about. I don't think they have any clue as to how good she is with numbers. She had a massive jump over the last few months .

Thank you x