Nottingham attacks - verdict

[DrunkenElephant]

I live in Nottingham and feel terribly sad reading the news today.

Could these deaths have been avoided if the police and mental health agencies had done more? But then how can more be done when services are on their knees?

I don’t know the answer to either question, but my hearts go out to the families of Barnaby, Grace and Ian.

thanks for this clarification.

You’re welcome.

Parole isn’t applicable he’s detained under the mental health act on a section 37/41 in secure hospital to undergo compulsory treatment. He will not be released until either the Secretary of State for Justice or a First Tier Tribunal assess that he no longer poses a risk to the public

These are what my Mum had in the 1980s. She absolutely hated them and fought tooth and nail to get them stopped. Trying to enforce people to have them on a regular basis would be hugely difficult in many, many ways. Im not saying they don’t have their place and shouldn’t be administered by force in certain situations but it isn’t going to solve the issues related to this very sad case.

The attorney general has been asked to consider whether the sentence was "too lenient", which given it's an order to indefinitely be detained in a secure mental hospital, seems ridiculous. You can't order anything more severe than that!

All the "he should have been tried for murder", "he's a murderer" stuff is pure obsessing over semantics from people letting emotion cloud the facts. Would saying he is guilty of "murder" make any noticeable difference than him acknowledging he's guilty of manslaughter, unlawful killing where he had a mental condition that prevented him from behaving rationally. He would still, being severely unwell, be in a secure hospital and not in prison.

You can consider him a murderer if you like, in the casual use of the word. He killed people. But his brain wasn't working and he didn't understand the nature of what he was doing and why rationally it wasn't appropriate.

By a more common sense interpretation, most people would think that a paranoid schizophrenic in the midst of a delusion going around stabbing people is "an insane person on a killing spree" but the insanity defence is so narrow that if the person knows that what they are doing is wrong, even if for their delusional reasons they feel they have to do it, it can't be a defence. So then you get "partial defence to murder" and diminished responsibility which people don't understand or like either.

We could really do with reviewing and reforming the bodge of old caselaw and mish mash of statues and have a system more like the American one with degrees of murder.

If it’s agreed it’s manslaughter then the professionals involved should also be done for manslaughter because they did not do their jobs.

I’m so angry on behalf of these families. I’d expected hospital initially then prison to be the outcome. A dear friend of mine had psychosis and it was scary. She was on medication but would decide she didn’t need it. Now, she’s on regular injections so professionals know she’s had the right medication. So that for him and once levels are right, he goes to prison.

@TeenLifeMum It has been agreed that is manslaughter.

Why should professionals be tried? Have you read any of this thread?

Im surprised at your comments seeing as you saw your friend in psychosis. How do you make someone take medication? The professionals couldn’t. They’re not guilty of manslaughter.

If he moves to prison once “stable” how do you ensure he stays stable, and other prisoners/prison staff and he are kept safe?

Psychosis can be temporary. Schizophrenia is not. He needs to be in a secure SPECIALIST unit.

Which is exactly where he is.

Interesting premise. the professionals involved should also be done for manslaughter because they did not do their jobs. you mean the solicitors and expert witnesses did not deliver a verdict you agree with? On that basis, you believe that they also should jointly be done for manslaughter. Let’s get this clear. So lawyer, psychiatrists, judge who have not committed a physical act of violence, were not in the proximity, were not involved and had no prior engagement with the perpetrator are themselves done for manslaughter.

He will not go to prison because he has been detained under the mental health act section 37/41 which means that he will be detained in a secure unit and given compulsory treatment which will include compulsory administration of medication.

He will not be released until either the Secretary of State for Justice or a First Tier Tribunal assess that he no longer poses a risk to the public, he did not receive a penal sentence as he has been disposed of under the mental health act

An absolutely nightmare people like this. Why don't they engage with services and take their medication.

Because they are mentally ill and unable to make rational decisions. The delusional nature of some mental illness can make them believe that they are perfectly well and that the medication is an attempt to poison them.

My DB is bipolar. He has to have a monthly depo injection that reduces him to a zombie-like state because he is non-compliant and won't take oral meds. He is unable to see that he is ill, and this is one of the symptoms of his illness.

@Zone2NorthLondon yes that's what I meant. Rather than if he was in a normal prison, he would have the chance of parole.

That would be a terrible idea. The sentence would have been life, so any mitigation would have reduced the minimum term served before parole - it seems extremely unlikely that parole will ever be appropriate for this person.

Bear in mind that if the CPS hadn't accepted the diminished responsibility manslaughter defence then the defence team would of course have pleaded it anyway. The jury might perhaps have ignored the medical evidence and found him guilty of murder, but that would probably have led to an appeal which it's very likely that he would have won.

Role of the judiciary is to apply process and good practice. It is not to appease or make families feel if justice has been done.

@Zone2NorthLondon no, the professionals who had a warrant out for his arrest but didn’t actively look for him or the professionals who knew he hadn’t engaged in the mh service or been taking his medication with regular reviews. They let someone they knew was a threat run free.

This is one of the key points of the speech that Barnaby Webber’s Mother made yesterday. They had told the family that they had no address for him, no fixed address, no way of finding him. That wasn’t true. She said he had a registered address, that he had been staying at until 2 days (I think she said) before the attacks. Total failure all round really. You can understand their anger at the systems that completely failed to work and then to be effectively lied to about that by way of them trying to cover themselves.

I do think there is a huge misunderstanding around severe mental illness because there’s such a stigma (still) attached to it all people do not talk about it. Depression, yes, OCD, yes. Bipolar or schizophrenia? No one wants to talk about that. My dh has severe bipolar / borderline personality etc all sorts. He had a huge breakdown during his last year at university and left during his last term. Since then he’s been on and off various medications and when we first met 15 years ago he had another huge breakdown shortly after we had our first child. Voices, delusions, the works. But he’s never been violent. Ever. Just very sad and frightened. With me pushing him to persist trying different drugs he’s finally on one that works and he’s been mostly stable for 8 years ish now. He works full time, in a good job, surrounded by people. No one has a clue about his mental health except that he has moments of “moodiness”. He will never tell them.

He still has the odd blip at home. It’s just become part of who he is but I often hear him talking to himself (?) late at night when I’ve gone to bed. It’s his way of managing his stress now I think. He’s never been able to completely “cure” that side of him but it’s now manageable.

I know if people knew his history or current state they’d be really shocked. It’s not always obvious. And it’s so misunderstood.

Okay, I will directly answer your points

When a warrant is issued by a magistrate the warrant is executed by the police and the police have the responsibility to go find the individual named on the warrant. That itself is not actually as easy as one would think to find an individual and execute the warrant and arrest them. They have to be at a place where you can find them. Some people have itinerant lifestyles move around and you are not where you can find them, or simply uncontactable. So applying your logic you’d get the police done for manslaughter? interesting. Tell me how that works out.

The mental health professionals who knew that he was non-compliance with his medication, so that would include psychiatrist, nurses, OT, social worker, healthcare assistant. On any given caseload at any given time, there are a number of people who simply are not concordant with their prescribed medication. The mental health professionals know this and will visit the individual if they can see them and ask them to take their medication. Explain to them the rationale why they want them to take their medication and the risks and consequences of non-compliance. If after hearing all this advice and request to take medication the individual decides no, that they will not take the medication at this point they mental health community team can do absolutely nothing to compel an individual to take their medication. Just so you are clear and you understand a community mental health team cannot forcibly compel an individual to take medication or injection. An individual cannot forcibly be made to take medication in the community. And any staff who forcibly compelled a patient to take medication. They themselves with would face sanctions from their professional registration bodies, and likely police involvement and their employer would most likely suspend and sack them.

letting someone who is a threat run free. Well that’s quite an emotive statement isn’t it? so let’s be clear when someone lives in the community and they’re not detained under the mental health act and they’re not subject to a community treatment order. They can only be brought into hospital under the mental health act, or if they choose to go in voluntarily as an informal patient.

if the mental health team feel that an individual who is non-compliant with her medication needs to have a mental health act assessment, then this is planned, and as I’ve explained previously you need two psychiatrist, and approved mental health practitioner, the police in attendance, not just any police. The police who are specially trained in mental health. There are limited slots available for mental health. Act assessments and mental health assessment can take weeks to arrange. When planning a mental health assessment one also has to book transport and have a locksmith present if the police break the door to force entry.

mental health is all about managing risk and this is the reality of working in mental health. Every day. You have people on caseload who are risky and are non-compliant with their medication. The statutory mechanisms with which one can detain an individual into hospital is under the mental health fact.

Returning to the police, the police have power to detain an individual in the community e.g. public Place If they appear to be in mental distress and are risk to themselves or others. This is section 136. Use of s136 is entirely dependent on the individual police officers judgement of the situation different forces apply differently and there is no universal approach.

so I hope you see that the professionals involved can’t get done, as you put it

The thing with the hardcore anti-psychotic medication is that they have really awful side effects. They make you physically unwell often, can give you permanent (even when you stop taking the medication) tremors, they make you feel like a walking zombie.

Trying to convince people to keep taking these medication when they either are sick but believe they are not sick or they are feeling well is hardwork because they are really awful, but sometimes necessary drugs.

Last time I was prescribed anti-psychotics and the psychiatrist was insisting I try them before something else I nodded smiled, took the prescription and never collected it because there's no way I will willingly take those meds again. Luckily I am not a danger to anyone to its only me that was stuck with untreated mental illness that was making me want to die, instead of anybody else being at risk. But I do understand why it's hard to get people to take these medication consistently long term.

there will be a serious incident (SI) review regarding this and the notes and documentation will be reviewed. Staff will be interviewed and statements will be taken. People will be asked to give an account of their actions. If it’s felt that people have managed the case in an unprofessional manner or negligent and their duties, the they professionally could face sanctions from the registration and or their employer.

I think some folk are under the impression that psychiatric treatment magically make someone better, like giving someone antibiotics for an infection. And many people do indeed recover fully. However, paranoid schizophrenia, AIUI, is a condition for which medication does not always help all that much.

Sometimes the best that can be achieved is a cessation of symptoms (or at least a reduction), some nasty side effects, and a dulling of emotion or even of intellect.

Because a murder indictment would have been unlikely to succeed.

Defending counsel has an obligation to defend their client to the best of their ability. It would have been unprofessional and unethical for them not to use the defence of diminished responsibility when the defendant so manifestly had a serious mental illness that impaired his mental functioning.

I wouldn't have found this man guilty of murder if I'd been a juror and the diminished responsibility defence had been used. And even if the jury had found him guilty, the appeal would have been a shoo-in imo.

Prison staff here. I was sickened by some of the comments I saw online about this yesterday . I completely understand the anger and pain of the families but this is why we have an impartial justice system to work on the basis of the law and apply it. Not knee jerk emotional justice.

This man was and is seriously ill. Its worth noting I also feel incredibly sorry for his parents and family who it's been widely reported are proud hardworking people with no bad background whatsoever. Must be absolutely heartbreaking and I hope people who know them who know who their son is are being kind to them and trying to support them.

You cannot have a person as unwell as this in prison. They are chaotic loud violent places. The staff have NO training in dealing with people this ill. We are not medical staff. Yes there is health care in hospital but not at the level this man and many others need.

He's not in a hospital propped up in bed with a bunch of grapes and an orderly topping his water jug up ffs. People are so so ignorant it's staggering .

This man went and inflicted violence and suffering on people when not of sound mind. People calling for him to be tortured and killed should take a long hard look at themselves. Of SOUND mind having these thoughts. I know whose worse and its not him!!

@golf7 well said!

Broadmoor is a psychiatric hospital

He will go somewhere like that

There are times when whole areas of the country have no beds in any unit to house a sectioned patient.

A couple of years ago, a client of mine had a psychotic episode and needed to be admitted. For the first 2 days that they were in custody at the police station, the nearest MH unit that could take them was in Glasgow. The MH team and the client were on the south coast.

A nearer bed became available before the client was admitted, but even that was in NE Essex, approx 150 miles away.

I think a lot of people have no idea how utterly overstretched MH services are. Thankfully, cases like the Nottingham one are rare, but that's probably because people in MH crisis are more likely to harm themselves than others.

Also to add I saw alot of comments yesterday from people complaining he's not in prison. You know the same prisons that people say are soft , holiday camps and cushy. So which is it and why suddenly are people so desperate for him to he in one. Just another example of people spouting sound bytes about things they know next to fuck all about based on a few newspaper articles designed to bait people . Makes me so so angry.