How would you want UK schools to deal with badly-behaved students?

[GeordieDownSouth]

Everyday on Mumsnet, I see posts about children being bullied by other kids, teachers having breakdowns due to poor class behavior, and teachers leaving the profession in droves for better conditions.

As an ex teacher, my main reason for leaving was poor student behavior, and a lack of support from the management in relation to this. For example, a 14 year old girl once pulled my hair roughly when my back was turned. The SLT told me that her behavior was my fault as I should have been disciplining her before she did it!

Prior to being a UK teacher, I taught in China and South Korea, where bad behavior was not the norm. The approach out there is very much the stick over the carrot. If a kid was naughty once, they'd be punished. In Korea, they got no lunch or were made to clean the school toilets. It might sound harsh, but it definitely worked! The kids who confined to behave badly after this would simply be excluded, which everyone supported.

In my opinion, I think UK teachers should be allowed to punish students for poor behavior, such as by making them clean the school. I mean, in an ideal world, teachers would have the time and money for positive reinforcement but at the minute, we don't.

What do others think?

I think really disruptive kids just need to be removed. Reality is with all the best will in the world teachers cannot fix whats wrong with their lives. Specialist units with high social services contact and streaming for apprenticeships would be better. The reality is some of these kids are unteachable, their presence at schools doesn’t benefit them or their peers.

@YireosDodeAver with rights come responsibilities. All pupils have the right to be able to learn and to feel safe,not just those for whom behaving appropriately is a challenge. Whatever the cause of poor behaviour, whether it’s lack of parenting, ND, poverty, poor nutrition or a desire to push boundaries and ignore expectations, that challenge needs appropriate resource and expertise. The expertise may be there, but the resource certainly isn’t.

I’m not advocating exclusion as a first resort, but there are times when it is the last resort. The fact that there is no suitable alternative education is not the fault of the pupils whose learning is compromised. If you have been in the position of having books thrown at you, wrestled to the ground, sworn at, spat at, punched and ignored, your tolerance for coping is reduced.

I'd like teachers and schools to have the power and courage to stand up and be straight with parents when their kid is the problem.

There is a girl in DD's class who has consistently bullied, ignored, played power games with every single child in the class (small school). However, her parents claim she is the bullied one, because due to her behaviour she has no friends. I tried not to get involved but she made a really serious allegation about my DD so I went to the school. I said that if my DD had said this or been mean to this girl and it has been reported to them, I would want them to tell me so I can deal with it.

The Head said this girl was having "friendship issues" and managed to convey that they know it is her that's the problem without saying as much. He advised me to not communicate with the parents as the father is aggressive and he has had to ask him to leave school premises when he threatened violence. However, no punishment is forthcoming for this girl. Why can't schools say "your child is bullying and therefore will lose playtime or be kept away from other children"?

I'd also like the practice of sitting the disruptive students with the "good" students to stop. This has happened with my younger DD and she finds it so stressful because the boy is messing around while she is trying to listen/ do her work, and she gets worried she will get in trouble as he's talking to her.

But as others say, that all depends on the parents being willing to accept their kid is causing problems. I wouldn't be a teacher for a million pounds!

Back when Adam was young and I started teaching we were able to refuse to teach violent students.

If a child hit a teacher or attacked another student it was instant exclusion. The parents have to take responsibility for the dreadful behaviour of some children.

Teachers should be allowed to refuse to teach a child who has assaulted them.

I also imagine even the most soft hearted teacher has a mental list of 2 or 3 kids who’s removal from the classroom would completely change the dynamic in the classroom and their ability to actually teach their kids.

Some of these kids will come from truly awful homes but unless we actually stop people who are likely to be incompetent parents from having kids they will always be with us. It is not acceptable for the majority to have to sacrifice a decent education in a safe environment for the minority.

DD goes to a nice private school where they told us in no uncertain terms that any kids really taking the piss would be kicked out. Parents are therefore heavily engaged and supportive of the school. I feel for the kids who just want to quietly get on having to be in these environments, for the teachers dealing with it and the parents who feel helpless and have little choice but to send their kids to schools who can’t guarantee their child’s safety or actually be delivered lessons in the way they should be.

The problem is lack of discipline at home for many. Add to that schools that don't have any power and are following a crazy set of guidelines that attempts to keep children in school.
The list of how school responds to poor behaviour at my kids school (left now) was unbelievable. They had SOOO many chances, the teacher would have to ask them to choose the right behaviour three times, before they were asked to leave the class. Sanctions for violent behaviour were weak and short.

All the kids knew this, a good percentage would just do whatever they liked and ruined the class for the others.
I think CCTV in every class would be a great idea, then parents can actually be forced to watch how their child behaves.

Personally I think schools need on site short term exclusion units, technology has come far and those that disrupt should get an automatic week in the unit. They can learn online/watch CCTV of the class.

Three strikes and your'e out.
This meets the target of still educating and removes the problem kids.
Yes it needs funding, but how much money is wasted training teachers, who leave.

My niece is a problem child, the excuses her dad trots out are cringeworthy. She walks out of school if she doesn't agree with a teacher, breaks all the uniform rules, disrupts constantly (3 detentions per week, every week) Has been violent to others. He never disciplines her, always fights her case at school. I feel really sorry for any poor sod that has to deal with her.

I know secondary schools where kids who damage property are already expected to be part of cleaning up and repairing it. Parents generally support this here, but I think that's because it's a natural consequence and from some parents they think learning things like fixing the toilet seems more useful than class time. These schools are also utilizing a lot of CCTV and in-school isolations and what alternative provision they can, and growing their pastoral care staff year on year as much as budgets will allow.

For what I would like if there was a magic wand and money tree:

More funding for quality registered external alternative provision places, and a new finding system so schools aren't having to pick between using alternative provision when it's best for the child and using that significant amount of money for other provision.

Enough alternative provision places so the places we have aren't pushed into being 1-2 term time turnaround services, which just don't work for the children who need it most.

Funding to help schools expand internal alternative provision.

More support for mentoring programmes in schools, both 1:1 and group mentoring, for a wider group of students. Behaviour and resilience mentoring, alongside quality alternative provision and nurture groups are things I've seen do amazing things to help those children, but even schools I know using them...they could fill double or more their capacity and I think even more children would benefit from mentoring support.

I'd also like to reduce many parts of the curriculum as the 'more is better' mindset from on high is not helping anything, and a rethink of how cohort size is calculated as many schools have way too many children for the size of the building (also a lot of badly designed new builds that have ridiculously small canteens and related spaces for breaks, which just encourages more conflicts) -- but that would require building more schools at a time we're having discussions of school closures in some areas with dropping numbers and schools being encouraged to join trusts to avoid closures in other areas and more staffing while in recruitment crises, but the kids now need support it's difficult to get with the buildings and staffing we have.

Not sure. Korean style seems too much, definitely not hitting them as in pp

As for class size I saw a video with Chinese class doing desk exercise the other day. It was very sweet but the class was huge, they likely have much lower disruption

Exclusion is tricky

It’s a topic I definitely have mixed feelings about. I WAS that child with ADHD and severe trauma. There were definitely times I acted up due to that, and was disrespectful, disruptive, or lazy with school work. However, I went to a very strict school and because of the generation, they came down on me like a tonne of bricks when I did step out of line. On the one hand, I can see their approach lacked compassion and appreciation for the complex reasons my behaviour wasn’t great BUT on the other hand, it did help me learn how to control (or at least mask) the challenges far better, so I could get a strong education and become more self-disciplined. Those things have ultimately served me very well in life, and getting a good education was such a powerful way out of the traumatic situation I was in. I doubt I would have been better off going through school today. The limited consequences and low expectations probably would have worsened my behaviour and life outcomes. Without a bit of a stick to change my behaviour, I’m not entirely sure I would have….

EasternStandard · Today 09:55

Not sure. Korean style seems too much, definitely not hitting them as in pp

It’s changed in Korea - teachers are no longer allowed to discipline children like they used to.

You don’t need extreme sanctions, just a ladder of sanctions consistently enforced by all with no fear or favour.

Major disruption or minor rudeness: 1 hour after school detention.
If you get three (say) in half a turn, 2 hour Saturday morning detention with SLT member. Major rudeness to teacher gets straight to Saturday morning detention.

Minor disruption: some kind of behaviour point system where 3 adds up to a detention.

Obviously violence against staff is a no no and, depending on the level, leads to at least temporary if not permanent exclusion, no ifs or buts.

And no one excuses for not serving detentions (obviously some flexibility about when if pupil or family have important commitments on the day).

This kind of stuff is plenty of everyone applies it consistently.

My son struggled because he was a laid back quiet boy at a single sex school - Because of my son’s personality he was ALWYS sat next to the disruptive child, he has been hit with rulers, books torn up and missed sections of the lesson because of the disruption. My son would pretend he needed the toilet just to get away. I’d like for teachers/schools to understand the stress a quiet child goes through when being used to help “control” the behaviour of a disruptive child.
During my sons science class there were three boys who were a constant distraction, the teacher would refuse to teach and sit in silence for almost all of the lesson, unfortunately I had no idea this had been going on for months until my sons grades dramatically dropped, I think this was a terrible approach from the teacher but I believe she’d ask for support but was ignored.

Some children and/or parents wouldn't turn up for a detention, let alone on on a saturday morning and who is going to staff that detention? open up the school... you'll need 3 maybe 4 members of staff.

Then what?

Exclusion? to what? specialist schools require specialist staff, they'd also have to be loads of them or otherwise you'd effectively be removing children from their parents... not all of whom are terrible parents, they just have troubled children.

We don't have enough money to repair the schools we've got or staff them!

Its all Pie in the sky.

We need to change our attitude to education, offer vocational training far early & have much earlier interventions, pre school so these troubled children and inadequate parents can be helped wherever possible.

Once you ve a hooligan 14yo its all rather too late.

As always though, its down to political choices: Tax cuts VS Public services.

@Cookiedefender ,

Most schools are open on Saturdays with a few staff in, especially SLT. You don’t need a Saturday detention every week, just every few weeks.

If pupils don’t turn up, escalates to internal isolation and then suspension.

Exclusion is a big issue and there are issues, I admit. But, to be honest, this is the most important issue to deal with, as you just have to be able to exclude. A mixture of PRUs, home ed and, if Year 10 or above, they can apply for an apprenticeship at 16.

There is no magic solution, but we have to manage schools for the many that want to and can learn, not the few who are ruining it for them.

Totally agree... but the emphasis has to be on prevention and within the school, inclusion, even if thats a separate unit within the school.

Apps at 16 is way too old, we need vocational training at 12/13/14 combined with some academic, get employers on board - give these kids a way out and hope.

So child A is punished with a Sat detention but might have to wait weeks before he/she attends this detention? that wont work.

Atm insisting x number leave with y number of GCSE's in subjects A to Z can turn some kids off learning forever.

I was one of these disruptive children, we wrecked more than a few lessons but mainly played truant (i left school without a single qualification) but it was in an age when i could return to learning for free as a 19/20 yo, then go to tech college in my 20s and get paid a mtce bursary, i went on to have a good career and raise a family, my DD was the first of our family to go to Uni, hell she was the first to get A levels!!

I would have benefited from early intervention as would my poor mum, who did her best but had zero support, 3 kids & no money.

Punishment doesn't work and exclusion just marginalises kids who will become parents and will raise thugs.

That'll be largely because that poster's school is following the Law. Excluding a child for anything that informs their EHCP is almost guaranteed to be overturned at Independent Review Panel.

Of course, some schools don't believe in following the Law and figure that if even 90% take it all the way to IRP and they have to be reinstated, it's still a) kept them out of school for an extended period, b) encouraged the parent to apply somewhere else, c) encouraged the parent to accept proposals for managed moves because they're clearly not wanted and d) the remaining 10% who didn't take it to IRP are out of the school permanently.

We left the last school due to this; my quiet, studious DD was constantly plonked next to the revolving door of disruptive children. Selective private school sorted our issue, but that’s clearly not an option for everyone. I have no idea what the answer is, tbh.

Bad behavior is due to structural issues.

1. Family frame work is breaking apart- what is the point of recognising civil partner? Are didn't the number of United family on the decline?
2. Are kids born with maturity? Why aren't rules not strict?

Compare above two fundamental structure in ASIA!!

Class sizes are large in China, 40, 50, 60 in a class. Behaviour imo is generally very good due to parental support and respect for teachers.

Interesting-can I pick your brains a bit??

What sanctions would there be for pupils that aren’t following the rules? Can schools exclude there?

What support is there for SEND, eg non-verbal children in nappies in KS1? Aggressive towards other children?

@Redlocks30
my dcs attended an international school so I don’t have personal experience of the Chinese state system - just through Chinese friends and colleagues.
Children are toilet trained from a young (often wearing split trousers instead of nappies). There is very limited support for SEND and I imagine the school would try and refuse to take a child who was aggressive/not toilet trained/non verbal.
sanctions for not following the rules- generally the kids follow the rules, partly out of respect for the teacher, partly not wanting to embarrass their family and also because education is a way out of poverty. IME test results and class averages are communicated to parents on a regular basis and kids will be disciplined at home. The Chinese don’t want to lose face through their child not behaving well at school.
There is generally much more respect for adults. Both my dcs had many Korean friends who would always bow to me when coming to the house. Their Chinese friends were also very respectful, but no bowing!
One of the pupils in DD’s class was on the autistic spectrum and could not be accommodated in the state system. He had some behavioural issues - shouting out, repetitive actions, unwillingness to engage ..etc His parents were wealthy and had foreign passports so he was accepted into the international school. He really thrived in DD’s class but there were 14/15 pupils with a teacher and full time TA.

@GeordieDownSouth
If a pupil is out of control disruptive on a regular basis in schools short report those kinds of families to social services and other relevant agencies even police,

Having a social workers and other agencies Big Brother style keep on eye on them

Would definitely encourage them incentives to address their family dysfunctional issues out,

It's not the school teachers responsibilities to have to be like psudeo school, counsellors etc

however that's the reality of the situ

It's not quite as simple as that though. Lots of kids either don't care about detentions or don't turn up to them. The fact that you have the same kids in detetention week-in, week-out shows that they are not much of a deterrent. The kids who are genuinely really bothered by the thought of a detention tend to be the ones who don't misbehave anyway.

Also, at the top of your scale of sanctions, we have the problem that it's very hard to permanently exclude students, or even to suspend them or internally exclude them beyond a certain number of times. Even if you can exclude one, they just go and cause the same trouble at another school (and in return you may get a replacement trouble-maker from another school).

Great idea 😁

Badly behaved kids often do better in smaller teaching groups. Schools should have provision for taking them out of classroom and teach them in a smaller group.
I appreciate that's difficult to do as that would probably mean running a whole separate school within the school as it impacts all years but these kids cause issues not only for themselves but for other kids and staff.
I'd also get family therapy for them at home. There are often issues going on that the school won't be aware of.