How would you want UK schools to deal with badly-behaved students?

[GeordieDownSouth]

Everyday on Mumsnet, I see posts about children being bullied by other kids, teachers having breakdowns due to poor class behavior, and teachers leaving the profession in droves for better conditions.

As an ex teacher, my main reason for leaving was poor student behavior, and a lack of support from the management in relation to this. For example, a 14 year old girl once pulled my hair roughly when my back was turned. The SLT told me that her behavior was my fault as I should have been disciplining her before she did it!

Prior to being a UK teacher, I taught in China and South Korea, where bad behavior was not the norm. The approach out there is very much the stick over the carrot. If a kid was naughty once, they'd be punished. In Korea, they got no lunch or were made to clean the school toilets. It might sound harsh, but it definitely worked! The kids who confined to behave badly after this would simply be excluded, which everyone supported.

In my opinion, I think UK teachers should be allowed to punish students for poor behavior, such as by making them clean the school. I mean, in an ideal world, teachers would have the time and money for positive reinforcement but at the minute, we don't.

What do others think?

OK, but what happens when the parents do send their sons there?

Unfortunately there is far too often no respect for the school environment and sadly some students make it their intention to cause as much havoc and damage as possible. I've worked in some academies where they run around in packs and destroy anything in their path while swearing and mocking the teachers/slt in pursuit, disturbing lessons, spitting on doors, laughing in your face. Even in the most challenging schools this is a minority, then there is a larger minority who just ignore and refuse, constant battle under pressure to get them to do some work and engage, then there is the rest who just want to get on and learn.

Schools are too big, classes are too big, teaching 32 pupils from the same prescribed powerpoint and trying to meet all of their needs, demands, while they are bored and inspired, it's just so bloody hard!

And with technology, everything instant, ofsted, parents on SM, having to watch everything you say and how you say it, all too common they say they will report you and get them sacked if they don't like it.

I'm just so glad I became one many years ago and loved my job, we could have fun, be creative, have banter, the ones who didn't behave were dealt with by us all and we got to know them to find out what worked, family backgrounds etc, a personal touch. The minority who were downright unpleasant didn't last long, there parents were called in for a tough talk.

Those advocating YouTube to educate kids...you know that there are 'educational evidence' saying the world is flat, the moon is a hologram and the country is run by lizards?. Internet websites are not wholly a good resource not to be questioned

So true, when the parents are mouthy, irresponsible and entitled then it's such a challenge to try to help their kids with boundaries and accepting responsibility. I'm gonna get my Mam on you etc

I don't know @fuckityfuckityfuckfuck - DS didn't go there! I assume they spend a lot of time in detention as the school is strict. But that's good in my view.

DSs primary school was very strict and parents liked it as it meant less disruption. Not fair to the kids who want to learn if they are disrupted.

But definitely a parenting issue. I am a beaver leader and can always tell which kid has never been told No and rules the roost at home.

Parents are a huge issue and their lack of respect for teachers. You only have to look on any spotted Facebook page to see them kicking off about school behaviour policies and threatening to deliberately undermine the school, for example.

I know of a parent who told a teacher to get a thicker skin when they were told their child had mocked a teacher.

Another issue is societal. Lack of support for struggling/unfit parents and the issues this brings later on.

We’ve also got the government to blame. All the teacher bashing through Covid, accusing them of not wanting to go to work through the pandemic, refusing to engage with the unions, etc. Curriculum designed by people who went to private school that isn’t accessible to a lot of kids. Pressure on schools for data/targets stressing teachers out by making them accountable for pupils who don’t get a 4 at GCSE but would never in a million years be able to actually get that grade.

The list goes on. Education system in this country is broken.

Absolutely! There should be more schools catered to a wider diversity of needs and ability. Problem is the stigma that is attached. As an educated and very responsible parent and teacher myself, my DC goes to a specialist school. I'm delighted he has this opportunity but many parents would consider it negatively and would rather insist on mainstream education where they can't cope and hence behaviour issues then blame the school.

Ultimately children are only excluded permanently for extreme behaviour over a long period of time or a very violent or dangerous single incident. Many kids who are in danger of exclusion also have sen such as adhd or they have challenging backgrounds This means that it is even more difficult to exclude. Schools are scared to exclude as they are judged on the number of exclusions.

There are no easy answers. I think more in class and out of class support would be useful. This could be alternative provisions, more specialist sen schools and more ta support. I also think patents must be held to account. Schools should use temporary exclusions and should insist on parents attending reintegration meetings before accepting students back.

I completely agree.

Not everything important can be learned on YouTube, and when your daughter is a bit older, she will probably want a career that isn't limited to being bratty.

I'm just imagining those are the parents screaming/shouting/undermining the school and threatening ofsted/newspapers which has a knock on effect.

You see it on the school WhatsApp groups. If you have a supportive set of parents, that year group tends to be well behaved. If the parents are the type to use WhatsApp to bitch about the school, chances are it's a disruptive cohort.

@Goldbar I haven't said schools know best. But I'm pretty sure they know a lot more about educating children that 90% of parents do.

And as someone who has overcome anxiety myself, sometimes you just have to pick yourself and get on with it because the world doesn't pander to you. Everyone has their problems. Doesn't mean we can just check out of any responsibility and the earlier children learn that, the better. But they won't learn that if their parents are forever excusing them from anything they don't want to do.

And we wonder why more and more people are out of employment and claiming benefits... if your parents made you go to school and get an education then you will realise that if this continues, society will stop functioning. The minority cannot financially support the majority which is where we are headed if parents don't put any value on education and personal responsibility.

Poor behaviour is not a result of any one cause. It is a result of a general cultural shift. Children are growing up in a world where they are no longer clear of the boundaries and expectations between their's and the adult world.

Children are given such high status and control which they can't cope with because the adults in their lives now feel unable to take charge. Many parents believe their child is autonomous and don't support school discipline and school's in turn don't have the power or support to remove or discipline disruptive, poorly behaved pupils.

In addition, family life has changed. Parents no longer seem to be held accountable for their children's behaviour- or for much really. There seems to be a growing sense that someone else will take care of things.

Behaviour is an issue but the bigger issue is funding. The same reasons that see the NHS and social care challenges hit the schools too. We need better buildings, better curriculum, better resourcing and staffing, more flexibility and more SEN and SEMH specialist placements.
The government, academies and Ofsted have been beyond toxic.

Bad behavior is a child’s cry for help. Discipline is important to a degree but more important is to understand WHY the child is acting up ? From my experience, it’s often due to mental health difficulties, neurodivergence or lack of understanding… just shoving more discipline on top of that does not help.

I wanted my children to go to a school with other children whose parents thought the same way about education as I did. Not to a school with only posh or clever or non-SEN kids, but parents who would support the school and their child's education. That was the main criterion for me.

One of my children won a full scholarship to a minor private secondary school that was excellent for dyslexia etc. The behaviour of some children was not great (drugs/theft/anti-social) and my child went astray a bit in Year 9. We were hauled in by the Head and told to suggest they made better choices about their friend group. We had words! All the friend group left the school so I can only assume their parents didn't support the Head.

That to me is the key advantage of a private school - they would work with kids on their behaviour/learning issues but only if the parents supported the school and if not they were 'asked' to leave. State schools just cannot do that anymore and have no means of disciplining.

Re: the Status Quo drummer - it is true that some people just have the force of character and the 'look' and kids just behave - we have all seen it and recognise it when we do. If we could only bottle it! Those people need keeping and paying substantial salaries.

@Mytholmroyd this is why I’m considering private education against my general principles. Not because I harbour hopes of my DC mingling with rich kids and making connections, but because the behaviour of kids in many state schools is frankly unsafe/frightening and I can’t put my scruples before my DC. Like you said I want them to go to school with kids whose parents value education and respect as much as I do.

Haven't time to RTFT, but sometimes the schools just need to stand up to the parents, and the LEA or trust needs to back the head.

I work in a school and at any given time there is at least one parent who has a poorly behaved child that they basically encourage and enable. Their child is utterly special and no one should make him or her do anything. Or their child has an Issue which the school is ignoring, when the child's issue is the parent's insistence that they have one.

And this is a school which is excellent for SEN children, so that's not part of the problem. If the child does have an issue, the SENCO is utterly brilliant in sorting out support.

Yes but that is for the parents to work out, schools are not able to do it all

100% agree with this. Anyone who thinks the problems will be solved by stricter behaviour policies and easier exclusions is kidding themselves.

If teachers were less stressed, less work load, they would have time to.build more positive relationships with the kids (which you can't do.if you have too.many and are fucking knackered) and know how to.handle the difficult ones. (Pupil profile for Sen kids) There would be more senior/experienced teachers who.have lots of strategies they could share with the newly qualified. If they were trained in Sen better, they would be better able to meet their needs...as would having TAs and more support for SEN. Less stressed SEN pupils leads to less dysregulation....better all round behaviour because poor behaviour can be catching...

Bad behavior is a child’s cry for help.

Not always.

Discipline is important to a degree but more important is to understand WHY the child is acting up ? From my experience, it’s often due to mental health difficulties, neurodivergence or lack of understanding… just shoving more discipline on top of that does not help.

What do you mean by 'more discipline' though? Should kids who are disrupting a whole class just be allowed to stay in the class and carry on constantly disrupting everyone else's education, or taking up all the teacher's attention to control them, on the grounds that their behaviour is a cry for help? Understanding why a child is acting up doesn't necessarily mean you can get them to stop.

Smaller class sizes, smaller school. Get rid of academy system. More SEND support in mainstream at least double the number of send schools. Sort out children's mental health services.

I can't see the point saying clean the school. I wasn't at school recently at all but even when I was (not a great school) kids would just say no when told to tick their shirt in or walk out of school when supposed to be in detention. The answer is get parents on board but that won't happen.

I think in my kids schools the terrible behaviour mainly comes from SEND kids. The 'naughty' kids then do t get support with their behaviour when they are young enough to change it because teachers too busy managing send needs and then the good non send kids are just not getting what they deserve.

I'd also like us to tackle social media the general media and children's internet use. I remember jackass tv show was about then I was at school- loads of the boys imitated that show bringing hair clippers in and just taking a stripe off half the class etc. Behaviours like this is seen as so funny in our media but it's not for the people it happens to

Exactly. Much as it's controversial, for those who can scratch the fees together, it avoids this stuff. I know it's not the answer. I know it prioritises people who can afford it. But if you can afford it, it's an attractive option

Does is solve the overall problem - no - of course not. But what can we do. That's the question.

I don’t know why we haven’t got really good behaviour policies and advice in schools, and that this isn’t a big part of teacher training. We should know enough about what works now surely?

Because I agree, what’s going on now is NOT working!

I think some of it is definitely over liberalisation. I’m glad kids aren’t caned anymore or humiliated, let’s never go back to that. But instead they are exposed to bullying. There has to be escalating managment (I’d say that rather than punishment, I think there are effective strategies rather than that) and there has to be exclusions/alternative schools when it gets too bad.

And honestly get rid of stuff like getting the victims up to ‘talk about it’ with the perpetrators.