How would you want UK schools to deal with badly-behaved students?

[GeordieDownSouth]

Everyday on Mumsnet, I see posts about children being bullied by other kids, teachers having breakdowns due to poor class behavior, and teachers leaving the profession in droves for better conditions.

As an ex teacher, my main reason for leaving was poor student behavior, and a lack of support from the management in relation to this. For example, a 14 year old girl once pulled my hair roughly when my back was turned. The SLT told me that her behavior was my fault as I should have been disciplining her before she did it!

Prior to being a UK teacher, I taught in China and South Korea, where bad behavior was not the norm. The approach out there is very much the stick over the carrot. If a kid was naughty once, they'd be punished. In Korea, they got no lunch or were made to clean the school toilets. It might sound harsh, but it definitely worked! The kids who confined to behave badly after this would simply be excluded, which everyone supported.

In my opinion, I think UK teachers should be allowed to punish students for poor behavior, such as by making them clean the school. I mean, in an ideal world, teachers would have the time and money for positive reinforcement but at the minute, we don't.

What do others think?

Radical solution? Make school non compulsory, from both sides. Parents don't want to engage with the education system? Fine. You keep your kids at home. Kids are violent and disruptive? Schools can kick out. But education remains compulsory - the parents become responsible for home educating their children, with the use of online school/ online learning platforms. The family gets given a laptop and is paid X amount per half term if the kid has attended online school / completed assignments/ passed assessments. If they don't pass, the payments stop until they do. At primary level a broad curriculum needs to be followed, but this can narrow as they move through secondary, with the option to do vocational subjects alongside basic, functional maths and English.

Unfortunately I think that this would create more problems than it solved, in terms of whole society. But it would make schools better.

The "social contract" between parents and schools has been severely challenged in recent years and not entirely due to the parents.*
*
I see comments like the above all the time on here and it baffles me. Schools didn't "break the contract", the government told them to close. So this is a pointless argument.

Parents are the main cause of problems at my school. From never allowing their child to be punished, to not bringing them to school, not doing homework/reading, not engaging with school in any way. I want to shake these parents and ask them what they think their little darling is going to achieve in life when they reach year 6 and still can't read or write properly due to the above reasons. And yet teachers have to sit in pupil progress meetings and justify why these children aren't keeping up. Makes me really cross. The conclusion that can be drawn is that a life on benefits is good enough for the parents, so it will be good enough for their kids too. It's so sad to see so many wasted opportunities to better a life.

At one school I worked, the Community Police came in just as the fire alarm had been triggered (something in the kitchen, not kid related). When some kids wouldn't quieten down quickly enough in his opinion, he charged forward and took over, undermining the Head in the process and started bellowing at them - looming over a well liked female staff member, hurting her ears - to shut up because if they didn't, they'd have trouble with him for the rest of their time at school because he'd know their faces anywhere they went and he'd come up and ruin their shopping trips and days out with their mates.

Half the staff wanted to tell him to fuck off, never mind the kids, who all had just been told they were being targeted (and frankly, due to the demographics, mostly due to their ethnicity).

In comparison, we had a visit from an ex-Status Quo drummer (so they wouldn't have had a clue who he was). He had the entire school in the palm of his hand, including some of the most challenging ones in the school. At one point, he just gave a couple of them The Look and they instantly quietened down.

We really don't need ex-forces and police in schools when their culture and attitude is so toxic - and as a whole, their record with teenage girls and female recruits is even worse, so they wouldn't be trusted to mentor any girls at all.

@SushiSuave . It's not an argument, it's what people feel. Many parents are no longer convinced that teachers know best or that schools can be trusted to act in their children's best interests.

maybe haee a list of punishments and a cost to fine the parents, wonder how soon something would be done then

It's nothing new, it's the reason my dad retired at 55. He's now in his late 70s

🤦‍♀️

Prime example.

Agreed. The stupid parents think this. Anyone with half a brain cell realises their child needs an education to get anywhere in life. That means they need to be in school. Unless home schooled but this is not the case for the majority of persistent absentees.

I wish they were able to get rid of the disruptive, disrespectful kids into some provision that actually worked for them, so that the kids who want to and are capable of engaging, can.

I am a parent and former teacher.

I would want to be told if my child misbehaved. Me and their dad would talk to them and give an appropriate consequence.

I have absolutely no issue with my children being punished at school, should that ever be necessary. There is a behaviour policy, which details punishments. I signed up to it when I chose to send my kids to this school.

Nobody, my children included, has a right to bully or to disrupt learning.

Some of the teachers at my school had been forces veterans In fact our headmaster was a decorated war hero. ( only found out this about 10 years ago!!)they stood no nonsense and only the foolish few crossed them. There was also the threat of Borstal that kept most on the straight and narrow

I think it's down to the parents. My 11 year old has told me some of his friends at school regularly get detentions and when he asks them what their mum will say, they say she won't care 🤷 I tell my son I will back the school with punishments if he messes around and have previously in primary school so he knows I will.

I also keep an eye on his homework, remind him to take him PE kit etc. I'm actively involved to ensure he has the skills to succeed in school. So far, not even a negative behaviour point has been received. He knows I'll be cross and he'll lose his beloved tech if he messes around. Passive parents are the issue. Schools can't win no matter what without parents backing.

Problem is the kids who want to and are capable of engaging are becoming the minority.

Yep. My son is mostly well behaved in class, but can be a bit of a smart Alec. It ain't cute, it's selfish and disrespectful, especially towards a teacher. He knows we expect better from him. He has been much better this year. Better than the kids who threaten the Headteacher yet get Star of the Week🙃

It is very clear that standards of behaviour and attitudes to school and community are very different here to in other cultures. The attitude in the UK is
That's not my sheet, litter or whatever so I am not picking it up and you can't make me. If I can get away with breaking this piece of school equipment then I will. If I don't want to wear school shoes then I won't. If I want to call out and piss around while you are teaching then I will.

This is miles away from the approach of respecting learning, other students and teachers, caring about the school and wanting to achieve.

If we want better school behaviour, expectations need to be high and parents need to stop undermining school discipline.

Wow your child is so thpecial they know even more than a TEACHER! Give me a break, no matter ehat your interests it is good to have a range of education in a social setting which the classroom provides. It's a model that works well, it isn't perfect but it isn't boredom , it's lack of discipline usually with the parents to have a lot to answer for. If your child is too screen addled to listen to the perfectly valid phrase 'the sun rises', which, yes it does, from our perspective, perhaps you should think about cutting down on screen time and work on getting your child to respect the adults who are trying to equip them with the skills they need to have a decent life.

School in its present form doesn't work for many children - school-related anxiety, mental health issues etc. amongst children are through the roof. It's very arrogant to say that schools always know best when in some cases they are actively harmful to children's wellbeing.

I don’t know what the answer is - I wish I did! But I do know if most of the pupils that behaved badly at my former school were handed a duster or a litter picker and told to clean up as a punishment, they’d tell me to F off or stick the duster up your a**e Miss.
And if we’d said run up and down the field for 20 minutes we’d have got the finger or another F off you old lady or something similar.
And to top it all off, the parent would be in at the end of the day shouting at the staff, blaming them for their child’s (often violent) outburst and bad behaviour. It’s because the teacher didn’t let them: go to their safe space/sit in their tent/leave the room/eat their snack/go to Miss Xs office.
Absolute refusal to accept responsibility. This for me, is a massive HUGE problem in society. Everything is someone else’s fault/responsibility.
The vast majority, definitely not all, but most poor and violent behaviours were from pupils with chaotic family lives.
It’s toxic.

Home schooling is great for parents that can get their children through the homeschooling to a level their child needs

Some parents have had little education themselves let alone effectively being able to school their child

Sunflower8848
You are part of the problem. A child being a smart arse in class is not a sign of a child genius who can learn everything they want to know from you tube. It is a child being disrespectful.

The curriculum is broad for a reason. Little Jimmy may think at 13 he wants to be a computer programmer. They may not feel the same at 16. They may not have the ability. There isn't enough capacity for thirty kids to decide they won't do this subject or that subject.

This individualist idea of I want what I want is part of the problem in our classrooms. Your support of it is the other part of the issue.

Parents presented with the bill for damages that are persued through ccj if necessary.
Parents are required to come into school and sit with their child for lower level disruption or child removed from school if parents object.
Exclusion for serious offences and parents responsible for finding and funding alternative provision.
ie. for parental support, it has to be made inconvenient and expensive to not comply. Parents will soon pull 'Alfie' or 'Lili' into line if it's going to affect jobs/ housing or cost them a lot of money ( loans if required)

Lowering 'school' leaving age to 15 again. Having kids who do not want to be there does no one any good. No benefits payable, though, until past 19. They must do a job, technical apprenticeship, or be supported by parents.

pie in the sky, but schools appear to be out of options.

Unfortunately, schools are doing the job with one hand tied behind their back. Discipline depends on the kids' willingness to cooperate.
presently kids have the attitude -
detention = optional- mum will complain
removal of privileges= so what, don't want to be there anyway
isolation= badge of honour
Suspension = extra holiday
Exclusion= longer holiday

Corporal punishment, as unpalatable as it is, kept the bulk of kids in line, it was feared. There were always a few that didn't care, but now there is nothing to fear at all.

Why was this not a problem pre-covid? Parents have more influence than schools in reducing anxiety. If school is optional if your feeling a bit anxious then you don't learn the resilience to over come it.

(Coming from the parent of a teen DD with ASD who desperately needs to be in specialist but council don't have spaces, mainstream is not the right place for her, and would easily become a school refuser if I didn't force her in every morning)

I think we're all glad that you're not involved in education also.

I'd want the schools to exclude the consistently disruptive pupils. Let their parents deal with them, or not, as they choose.

I do think teachers and schools should be able to punish or exclude more easily. It's not acceptable that some teachers are attacked or disrespected.

The senior leaders in the school need to set the tone though. The Head at a local school that I visited for DS said that if you were a family that didn't have rules then that was a legitimate lifestyle choice but you shouldn't send your sons here. As they would be in constant detention.