The post office scandal

[Bringonthesun24]

Not sure if there is a thread. There probably is. I've just watched this video and I'm utterly in shock!

It seems that there could be potential for people at fujitsi to have altered the post masters accounts which could have been ordered by the top at the post office.

Why did they get rid of only that 1 vistor book. Why did they pay that guy a visit the day after he went to fujitsu.

There is so much more to this than meets the eye. I've watched some of videos and clips of other post masters and it breaks my heart to see how broken they are. How their lives were ripped from them and the shame they had to bear whilst knowing they were innocent. I actuay feel so angry for them.

Why is something only being done now after a bloody drama on TV. Why were the public not as aware of this scandal?

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGejPxjAx/

@HoneyButterPopcorn

I wonder how many other IT issues there are waiting to be exposed

Some of HMRC's systems aren't fit for purpose. Particularly the PAYE/NIC system for employers. Ever since it was installed, it's been impossible for any organisation/employer to get a full "statement" of payments made against the wages/tax/nic submissions, and sometimes the payroll figures submitted don't appear identically on the HMRC system, there being some "changes" somewhere which are never explained, but just manually over-written by HMRC when they are challenged. I dread to think how many employers have simply paid what HMRC have told them is outstanding as their system is completely unfit for purpose and it's impossible to find out exactly what some figures demanded are for, as they bear little or no resemblance to the payroll submissions. This has been going on for years. Worse is that, as an accountant, I can tell when firms have overpaid, yet HMRC systems don't show the overpayment as being due back to the employer, they seem to "disappear".

Same with the self assessment and corporation tax systems - sometimes overpayments are just "zapped" into the ether as "permanent overpayment" and disappear from the account.

Similar problems with the VAT system where businesses, again, can't see a full statement of VAT returns and payments, so again, demands from HMRC are often paid by businesses on the assumption that "they must be right", but in reality are errors within HMRC that the business can't understand and can't do anything about because of lack of transparency.

For most book-keeping software, a fundamental cornerstone is a full audit trail and double-entry system, along with the ability to produce a full statement for each customer/supplier showing all invoices and all payments, so it's relatively easy to see what's paid and what isn't, what's been overpaid, etc., That basic functionality is completely missing from all HMRC systems.

The things that has shocked me most i think are the fact that the PO basically suspected their entire workforce of being tea leaves, so regarded the Horizon figures as right because they confirmed their (racist) suspicions. Of their own contractors.

The fact that a partially privatised concern was allowed to retain the right to prosecute. Fuck me.

And the third being the legal fight that they have put up at every turn and which continues now. Though I suppose if they are now technically insolvent, someone needs to fight something or it will collapse. I wonder if Rishi will renationalise it.

That's horrifying.

Also unsurprising, given what we know about Horizon.

The things that has shocked me most i think are the fact that the PO basically suspected their entire workforce of being tea leaves, so regarded the Horizon figures as right because they confirmed their (racist) suspicions.

Not just that.; No one - no one - at PO towers once stopped and said "I say chaps" (deliberate use of word there) "I say chaps, has anyone noticed that getting on for 20% of our sub postmasters are on the fiddle ? Bit of a rum do, donchasay ?"

There is no use looking for any comparison, because there isn't. You can bet your bottom dollar that if Tescos, or Waitrose saw a 10% fraud across their stores they would have a damned good look.

With smarts like that, what the actual fuck were these wankers doing running a countrys postal service, for fucks sake. They would have been sacked from my old school tuck shop. CBE or no CBE.

I think it's a pretty general assumption, at a certain level of management, that 'they' are all on the fiddle. If not dodgy benefits then dodgy work perks. Because most don't get 'enough to live on. How else could they get by'? If you're a dishonest person, then you assume everyone is equally, or more, dishonest than you are yourself. We are expected to be just like them but worse. That's clear from their working practices. Over-promoted is the kindest thing to say.

'They' being the workers.

@user1497207191

With smarts like that, what the actual fuck were these wankers doing running a countrys postal service, for fucks sake. They would have been sacked from my old school tuck shop. CBE or no CBE.

This is entirely what's wrong with the country over the past 2/3 decades. Far too many of the politicians, senior civil servants, "Quango" bosses, etc., are simply incompetent and/or have ulterior motives. It's everywhere - the NHS, local councils, the police, fire service, housing associations, social services, regulators, etc etc. Far too many people in the top jobs who are there through nepotism and box ticking rather than ability.

Just look, today, at the reports of the Rochdale sex grooming scandal - same old story, people at the top who've not got a clue, in social services, the council, the police, etc. In London, "Dame" Cressida being ousted as chief constable after a series of cock ups, and the fire service boss being ousted after ridiculous comments about Space Shuttle landing on the Shard and not being able to remember what she did at Grenfell Tower!

Back in the noughties, a newspaper did a brilliant chart about all the "important" people in politics at that time, both in Parliament and the civil service. All the "links" between people, i.e. a "couple" who were MPs living together, one a Tory MP, one a Labour MP, that repeated multiple times with past partners, same with a Tory MP living with a Labour councillor, etc etc. It's just a game to them - if, say, a person who was genuinely a Labour supporter to the extent it was their genuine "calling" they'd never marry or live with a Tory MP as their beliefs and principles would be too different - yet that's exactly what was happening with them living together, past partners with the opposite party, etc. It's sickening that they're playing games when it's real lives they're playing with!!

Yes, @user1497207191, you are not wrong.

I think it's a pretty general assumption, at a certain level of management, that 'they' are all on the fiddle.

You know why ?

Because most managers are on the fiddle and can't believe there are people that aren't.

This is the corrosive effect of corruption and where it goes. No wonder the current government thinks everyone is on the lam. It's because they are.

Even as I type Dave "Lordy me" Cameron is being linked to dodgy payments from his mates.

To paraphrase Trump (Sorry, but he's right), we need to drain the swamp.

We need some politicians with a backbone to start to put an end to the rot at the top.

Sadly it won't happen. Those in genuine power in both major parties will ensure that they always get their "tame" puppets into leadership positions and ensure that no one who wants to change the status quo gets anywhere near.

Except Trump campaigned with the phrase "drain the swamp"... then made the US swampier.

Appointed close family members to senior official positions; had his daughter sit in for him in international meetings; demanded US govt and other countries' govt delegations use Trump Organization venues...

More important to look at what politicians like Trump actually do, than at what they say in election campaigns...

Sadly it won't happen.

Oh it can if you put a few heads on spikes.

Trump IS the swamp, if by 'swamp' we mean overpromoted, social climbing, corrupt incompetents.

The more I think about it, the more I come back to the PO being able to be the private prosecutors of their own internal crimes without the police or CPS or other authority involvement is absolutely central to this. And a bizarre anomaly.

And I take the points entirely about what audit actually is, and what scrutiny is. It makes me think about Ofsted, and other forms of scrutiny that are based on assessing the outward form of things, and on punishing individuals, without asking those individuals what is going on, or devoting any time to understanding how things are really working.

I havent had time to watch the programme yet so only what ive read online really. What I dont get is HOW does it get to over 700 people being accused of the same thing and all denying it. Surely at some point it doesnt take geius to work out that actually, there is something amiss and covering it up never wins through?

There is a very old adage that you will never get someone to see something if their job depends on them not seeing it. It's why we have soldiered on with the total clusterfuck that is the "war on drugs" with fuck all results in 53 years.

These "audits" are usually just box ticking exercises undertaken by underqualified/inexperienced people who havn't a clue. Take the food hygiene "audits" of places like cafes, takeaways, etc. - they don't routinely do any actual testing of the products or actual working practices - it's mostly a tick box exercise checking paperwork such as work instructions, so the place only has to have a written instruction that, say, a cooked pie has to be checked by thermometer to be a particular temperature - they don't check it actually happens!

As for police and CPS, they're institutionally incompetent. Look at today's report of the Rochdale child sex scandal - both police and CPS come out very badly for basically ignoring what was going on and doing nothing proactive to investigate and prosecute! This is just the latest of a long line of scandals/fiascos. Look at "Dame" Cressida of the London Met, look at the London Chief Fire Officer who claimed she couldn't remember what she did at Grenfell Tower and made a ridiculous comment to the enquiry about a Space Shuttle landing on the Shard. Where the hell did we find these incompetents and how the hell were they promoted so far beyond their ability?

I'm sure Ofsted and care home audits are similarly done by people who have little or no real relevant qualifications/experience, but are, again, just overly promoted box tickers who are happy to mark you down if a piece of paper is missing, whilst happily ignoring the reality of what's happening!

All they need to do is ignore and cover it up long enough before they move on to bigger jobs or retire early with a gold plated pension and a gong. Then let someone else do the work to clear up the mess!

I just think the internal faults of one organisation aren't the same as another organisation. So quite possibly the people who cocked up in Rotherham would spot things going wrong in the PO, and vice versa. Depends also on the incentives. And a lot on the management.

I was a manager in a Post Office when Horizon was introduced. I wasn't a Sub Postmistress because I worked for a chain of shops that had Post Offices in them, so I never actually signed a contract that said I was personally responsible for any shortfalls.
I'd be interested to know if any of the offices in my chain or others like them, basically the larger franchises, had "money missing" due to Horizon and if so how it was handled.

I do know of three members of staff who were actually stealing money, it's not uncommon when you're working with cash unfortunately.

If you did a psychological test on CEOs at the top they would have similar personality traits. How else would they get to the top without being a cold brutal person. Well other than nepotism.

They don't care, they lack empathy. All they care for is themselves and their paydays and bonuses. The other staff are their little minions.

Same goes for MPs and Rishis cabinet. They don't care for the people. It's all about reputation, egos and money.

I can’t understand why so many people cared more about protecting an IT system than putting innocent people in jail. There are internal communications showing senior staff and lawyers expressing concerns about convictions being over turned if Horizon was shown to be unreliable. It doesn’t seem to occur them that they SHOULD be overturned.

I can’t understand why so many people cared more about protecting an IT system than putting innocent people in jail.

"For the love of money is the root of all evil"

Something I am sure Paula Vennells would have heard somewhere.

If you were in the position of PO subs accused of fraud/having to make up shortfall yourself, would you? What would you have done?

I think most would have felt under pressure as their business/livelihood depended on it. Lots were small post offices where the postmaster was self employed and ran a shop alongside, such as a newsagents, grocery shop, etc. They were threatened with immediate removal of their postmaster "job" so their entire business would have been at risk. Without the post office counter being open, they'd immediately lose a big chunk of customers which would have massively reduced footfall of customers buying other things - they relied on people buying a paper, groceries, cigarettes etc when they came in to buy a stamp or withdraw their pension cash! These people had paid tens of thousands to "buy" the business inc. PO counter from the previous owners, may have had loans/mortgages, needed the business income to pay their own wages and personal costs, etc. It's a no brainer to pay a few thousand to the PO to "buy" the right to carry on a postmaster and keep their business operational - many had no choice but to do it!

@user1497207191 yes, I can see that & the drama shows this so well. If I knew the system was to blame & the shortfall an error, & def not mine. I am not sure I’d have remortgaged home etc although options limited. What could anyone do? The big lie that you were the only one didn’t help re: legal aid. The helpline advice was a farce, they must have realised earlier on a huge flaw in system but had no agency.