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The post office scandal

130 replies

Bringonthesun24 · 09/01/2024 22:44

Not sure if there is a thread. There probably is. I've just watched this video and I'm utterly in shock!

It seems that there could be potential for people at fujitsi to have altered the post masters accounts which could have been ordered by the top at the post office.

Why did they get rid of only that 1 vistor book. Why did they pay that guy a visit the day after he went to fujitsu.

There is so much more to this than meets the eye. I've watched some of videos and clips of other post masters and it breaks my heart to see how broken they are. How their lives were ripped from them and the shame they had to bear whilst knowing they were innocent. I actuay feel so angry for them.

Why is something only being done now after a bloody drama on TV. Why were the public not as aware of this scandal?

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MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 11/01/2024 12:00

tishtishboom · 11/01/2024 11:59

There was an excellent, detailed Radio 4 series about it in 2020. www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/m000jf7j

I bloody love Radio 4. Unfortunately it doesn't have the same reach or impact as an ITV drama!

SnapdragonToadflax · 11/01/2024 12:01

Why now? It's an election year.

tishtishboom · 11/01/2024 12:51

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves Sadly you're right. But the ITV drama was excellent tbf. Terrific cast.

TripleDaisySummer · 11/01/2024 13:15

Why is something only being done now after a bloody drama on TV. Why were the public not as aware of this scandal?

I first read about it in computer weekly - also read about air traffic control computer system they had deep concerns about but can't remember what happened there.

It has been picked by by various bit of BBC - Private Eye local papers - hit headline in big way 2019- papers national national news - when the 555 got their convictions over turned.

Things were happening but so ridiculously slowly.

I've seen various guess why now - people connected with the families behind headlines started imaging themselves there -like Cathy Come Home in 60 impacted how homelessness was viewed. Also timing - many at home over Christmas and little good on TV so hit a wide audience and it well acted - Monica Dolan sold the anguish and how long it went on and it's still ongoing.

CGTNamechange · 11/01/2024 14:31

First week in January is the absolute peak time to launch a big prime time drama. Many middle aged people have got nothing better to do. So ITV, bless them, gave this show their best shot at maximum impact. Gold star casting as well, and a big marketing push.

Standingchair1 · 11/01/2024 18:13

do you have a mobile phone or still just use your landline?

Paul2023 · 11/01/2024 19:42

It was a big story before the ITV drama was broadcast , but it certainly gave the story a huge platform. Hopefully the nets is closing in on those responsible.

ladymalfoy45 · 11/01/2024 19:48

As @tishtishboom posts.

sakes · 11/01/2024 20:03

The inland revenue is probably another one

Nim711 · 11/01/2024 23:13

The fact is that paula will never face real justice as she is rich. But one thing the general public can support is. Boycott her. Dont let her eat in your restaurants. Dont let her shop in your building. Boycott her to a life similar to what she made these poor post masters experience. The fact that she knew she could have stopped criminal cases developing towards innocent people but she chose to continue the lies on her watch. Dont go to her church. Dont interact with her see if she understands public justice

The show is very insightful

Atmywitsendtonight · 11/01/2024 23:17

I’m an auditor and I’m just sitting going red flag, red flag, massive fucking red flag!!

Bringonthesunforthewashing · 11/01/2024 23:22

i watched it last night.

how did I not know about this?!

totally shocked as is dp. The bastards getting away with it and ruining lives all this time.

criminal and we all know no one will serve time other than the postmaster/postmistress etc.

I don’t even want to buy a flipping stamp now!

farfallarocks · 11/01/2024 23:29

If you think this is bad, look into the Infected Blood scandal. 30 years of cover ups, hundreds dead, children experimented on. Public enquiry going for 5 years and still nothing for many victims

Boomboom22 · 11/01/2024 23:33

I don't understand who got the money? And how the audits didn't find all this extra money? Loads just paid back by postmasters but it wasn't owed. So was someone in horizon taking it? Or in the ether? How did the books not balance at the higher end? I really need to watch the programme but don't think it answers these q just says errors /bugs. But how can that be?

user1497207191 · 11/01/2024 23:33

And the 3.8 million excluded from covid support is another scandal that deserves far more public awareness. Legal actions are happening but it’s a slow process.

user1497207191 · 12/01/2024 10:34

Boomboom22 · 11/01/2024 23:33

I don't understand who got the money? And how the audits didn't find all this extra money? Loads just paid back by postmasters but it wasn't owed. So was someone in horizon taking it? Or in the ether? How did the books not balance at the higher end? I really need to watch the programme but don't think it answers these q just says errors /bugs. But how can that be?

I think there was a complete lack of "double entry" book-keeping so the "other side" was never considered. It could have been over-inflating the sales of stamps or double counting sales, etc., so the "proceeds" of the paybacks just went to sales.

In the big scheme of things, despite the figures involved being millions, it would still be "immaterial" in the big scheme of things, so the company's auditors would probably not be interested. Sales of over a billion, annual profits/losses were a couple of hundred million - a few million here and there spread over a number of years barely causes a ripple.

When even small businesses use "proper" accounting principles such as double entry based "off the shelf" software, it is hard to comprehend that mega businesses still often do their accounts on a series of spreadsheets that aren't "double entry". My son works at a global insurance firm and they do everything on spreadsheets, and he was aghast that there is no "double entry" involved - he was brought up on double entry as he worked for me (I have an accountancy practice) throughout his teenage years so lives and breathes the "audit trail" and "proof" of double entry, but the concept in alien in his workplace, and he tells me stories of numerous "suspense" accounts each containing millions of pounds, but ignored because they're not "material" for a multi national company with turnover of billions and profits of tens/hundreds of millions.

I also believe the old tour operating company, Airtours, went bankrupt because of accounting/reporting errors caused in part by them using spreadsheets for their accounts and apparently never ever doing a bank reconciliation, so huge numbers transactions not recorded at all and the "difference" at the year end accounts being put to suspense accounts and ignored by the auditors, again on the grounds of not being "material".

beguilingeyes · 12/01/2024 10:52

The corruption in this country now is off the charts. We always used to laugh at Italy and the likes of Berlusconi, but we're no better now. We seem to have created a culture of plausible deniability at the top of so many organisation and government which means that nothing is anyone's fault any more.
Maybe after Hillsborough, Grenfell, Covid this is a last straw moment and the public want someone to finally be answerable.

user1497207191 · 12/01/2024 11:08

beguilingeyes · 12/01/2024 10:52

The corruption in this country now is off the charts. We always used to laugh at Italy and the likes of Berlusconi, but we're no better now. We seem to have created a culture of plausible deniability at the top of so many organisation and government which means that nothing is anyone's fault any more.
Maybe after Hillsborough, Grenfell, Covid this is a last straw moment and the public want someone to finally be answerable.

I fully agree. Though not too sure it's always corruption everywhere as there is clearly incompetence at the highest levels of national government, local government, quangos etc. Maybe a combination of corruption and incompetence.

Near us, we had a huge building full 14000 tons of illegally dumped skip waste from a rogue skip hire firm, which had been building for years. It caught fire in December and took a month to fully extinguish it which involved hundreds of thousands of pounds of council taxpayers money to bring in plant hire to remove the waste, demolish parts of the building etc. The thing is both the council and the environment agency knew of it for a few years and basically sat on their heads, munching biscuits at meetings about it, but not actually doing much. Eventually they revoked the operators licence and the firm went into receivership and therefore abandoned the site, but still nothing practical was done - council and EA just twiddle their thumbs. The place catching fire, and covering the area in noxious/dangerous smoke for weeks was inevitable, but there was no proactivity in dealing with it beforehand!

Same with the Morecambe Bay cockle pickers tragedy. All the locals knew it was an accident waiting to happen. People were writing letters to the local paper, people were reporting it to the coastguard, police, local MPs, local councillors, etc., but nothing was done. Then on the morning it happened, all those people were all over the media saying "lessons must be learned" all trying to blame others, but every one of them bore their own responsibility for ignoring it.

Neither of those instances were corruption, both were incompetence from local authorities, regulators, quangos, etc.

ruby1957 · 12/01/2024 11:13

Ed davey - libdem. Labour in power. All political parties are involved - not just the conservatives.
You do realise the tax-payer will foot the bill for £2bn compensation (which is well-deserved by those affected).

beguilingeyes · 12/01/2024 12:14

Shouldn't Fujitsu be on the hook for some of the compensation? They're still getting billions of pounds in government contracts.

It also emerged that Fujitsu has been awarded work totalling £4.9billion since the December 2019 Court of Appeal ruling.

SerendipityJane · 12/01/2024 13:03

beguilingeyes · 12/01/2024 12:14

Shouldn't Fujitsu be on the hook for some of the compensation? They're still getting billions of pounds in government contracts.

It also emerged that Fujitsu has been awarded work totalling £4.9billion since the December 2019 Court of Appeal ruling.

By the time this story has ended, Fujitsu will be the injured party.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 12/01/2024 13:43

Atmywitsendtonight · 11/01/2024 23:17

I’m an auditor and I’m just sitting going red flag, red flag, massive fucking red flag!!

So much in agreement with you there. I'm not, but have worked in banking and finance for nearly 50 years, have had more audits than I care to recall and am reading the evidence of the PO investigator Stephen Bradshaw and thinking 'you what? you're admitting you didn't even know the system you were auditing??'

Reading what he said sounds like the PO wasn't interested in finding out, either. It was a deliberate regime of fear and intimidation; and I'll bet he and a lot of others retire quietly on full pension, as well, and still convinced they did nothing wrong.

user1497207191 · 12/01/2024 14:04

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 12/01/2024 13:43

So much in agreement with you there. I'm not, but have worked in banking and finance for nearly 50 years, have had more audits than I care to recall and am reading the evidence of the PO investigator Stephen Bradshaw and thinking 'you what? you're admitting you didn't even know the system you were auditing??'

Reading what he said sounds like the PO wasn't interested in finding out, either. It was a deliberate regime of fear and intimidation; and I'll bet he and a lot of others retire quietly on full pension, as well, and still convinced they did nothing wrong.

I've been an auditor. I started my accountancy life back in the early 80s before "modern" audits were a thing. Back in those days, in the small accountancy practice I worked in, we "audited" everything, whether strictly necessary or not, including sole traders such as shops, tradesmen, cafes, private hotels, etc. Our "audit" wasn't the modern style of sampling etc., we just checked everything, ticked off the bank statements, ticked off the invoices, ticked off the till slips, etc. It was just "normal" and part of doing the job properly. The firm's partners didn't want any accounts to be signed off without them being "right".

As time passed and I moved firms, I ended up in a bigger firm that did "proper" statutory audits and couldn't believe how shoddy and slapdash they were. No real interest in the accounts being right - it was all about the "audit trail" of the audit work we did, i.e. planning our audit, recording what we'd done, recording the sampling we'd done, recording the "walk through" system checks we'd done, etc., all aimed towards satisfying the regulators that we'd "properly planned controlled and recorded" the audit work as required by Auditing Standards. Never once was there any "sanity check" to prove the accounts were actually right - it was all about following procedure and obtaining evidence to prove that we'd done checks.

On two notable occasions of large firm audits in practices where I worked, the accounts turned out to be blatantly wrong, but our "audit" work hadn't even scratched the surface to identify the errors. Both cases led to the firms in question ultimately going into receivership, people losing their jobs and innocent suppliers losing shedloads of money. A "sanity check" type of "old fashioned" accountancy would have highlighted the errors, but because nothing came up on the modern "risk based sampling" approach, the firms in question happily signed off the audit reports which meant the firms got continued/extended banking facilities, loans, new suppliers provided goods on credit, landlords gave them leases for premises, firms provided equipment on HP/lease etc - all ended up suffering big losses!

It was that kind of experience which led to me leaving "audit" firms and starting my own accountancy practice and cancelling my "auditing certificate". I didn't want anything to do with the "industry" of modern audit which is basically box ticking for regulators. Now I'm about to end my working life as I head into my 60s and for the past decade or two have been proudly back to doing accounts the "old fashioned" way again, of actually just "ticking and bashing" and doing my utmost to actually produce a set of accounts that is actually right, every figure subject to a "sanity check" without worrying about the nonsense of materiality, creeping materiality, etc. To my old-fashioned mind, accounts are either right or they're not, and I don't indulge in the concept of them being "materially" right where materiality is an arbitrary concept and can disguise big problems within the firm.

MandyMotherOfBrian · 12/01/2024 14:05

SnapdragonToadflax · 11/01/2024 12:01

Why now? It's an election year.

There’s been plenty of election years since the beginning of this miscarriage of justice. Nothing was done, or rather at speed and with great publicity, because there wasn’t any one single political party at fault. Horizon signed off by Blair and the Labour government, Post Office overseen by Liberal Democrat ministers during the coalition (Davey, Cable, Swinson) and Tory government for the last 13 years. All complicit. If this had been only a Tory failure the Labour Party would have been all over this years ago and shouting from the rooftops about the injustice. And vice versa. Similar to the contaminated blood scandal.

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