A thread for those of us who tried who have a career change but didn’t manage to

[123stay]

I’ve considered writing this post for a while, and was finally inspired to do so by the thread about not being happy with where you’ve ended up in life.

Please bear in mind this is mainly a mental health and personal support thread, NOT a job hunting advice thread. Please don’t give unsolicited advice or tell me to update my CV or go on LinkedIn etc. I’m not interested any more.

The point of this thread is that when we’re hear about people having career changes, or studying or retraining to get a new job etc, we only hear about the successful ones. But I’m convinced there’s lots of other people out there who tried but failed.

After years of employers asking why I didn’t have a degree, I went and studied later in life. I did very well at uni, but was unable to get a graduate job because most employers just aren’t set up to deal with mature graduates, unless you want to be a teacher. I applied for so many things, went to networking events etc, the ones with application forms were too rigid for my non-traditional situation, a lot of employers want people with masters degrees now, and so many other barriers.

We’re constantly told that we can change our lives through education. There is a huge amount of privilege involved in telling someone that if you don’t like your job, go and get another one instead. It’s not that easy.

I still do the same type of work as before, because it’s all I could get. I just wanted to know that I’m not alone.

I really want to start something on my own, but I feel too exhausted at the moment. Maybe in a year or two.

Btw, DH has a fantastic CV, two great degrees, masses of sought after skills, a highly paid job, but he took a year off to try to do something else as an experiment, and found it impossible. Its really not easy, especially after 50.

I have to say I’m struggling to comprehend the exact thrust of the argument everyone is making.

Are you all suggesting the Mature Study and Retraining board here shouldn’t exist because almost no one ever successfully retrains?

The idea, when it was set up a handful of years ago, was that it would be of use to all the gazillions of posters whose threads began with Am I too old to … ? Are you saying they’re all wasting their time?

(My experience of ageism in second careers has been unspeakably awful - but the year I spent doing a postgraduate degree in a new subject in late middle age was one of the best times of my entire life. It did open up unexpected opportunities and adventures, but there’s no doubt all the people half my age have swept past me to immeasurable success.)

@StrangeNew no, I don't think so. It's just showing an alternative perspective. Some of the posters put a lot of time and money into retraining and it didn't work out. I personally have never read people's experiences of this on the other board. I only know my mums experience of not becoming a secondary school teacher.
If we omit these experiences, we may lead some posters to think retraining is hard but straightforward and will ultimately lead to a more financially rewarding or intellectually stimulating career.
There is a lot of pressure to succeed in the sector you have trained for. Employers are undoubtedly ageist (as well as sexist and racist, so if you are already a woman and/or from a global majority group it's a double whammy) and so many career changers do not end up succeeding. These are just facts.
I see it on my course. People struggling with placements with parents with Alzheimer's, young children, other caring responsibilities... plus the massive financial hit (for example we can't claim UC to top up our bursaries). Is it any wonder people drop out? And then when we qualify we still need frequent supervision and support, plus we are working long hours and trying to prove ourselves. At the moment it seems impossible that I will get to a stage where I can sit back and enjoy being slightly better off... by then the COL will probably mean there is no real change in my lifestyle. So many would think is it all worth it?

I will rtft, but I think I've met my people.

I am still grieving my failed attempt 6 months later. Un-MN hugs to you all

No. I don't think much of this thread at all was about whether an MN board should exist. I also don't think anyone thinks retraining is impossible. Im delighted that for many people it has worked but equally I sympathise with those who point out it's not as easy as people sometimes suggest it is, and probably harder in certain sectors.

@StrangeNew not at all.

In my case I transitioned successfully from one career to another after fully retraining and starting from scratch.

But it took me 7 years or so to actually mentally work out what it is I wanted to do, would be within my skill set, fulfilling but also offer a level of remuneration I was happy with. I had to do an extensive amount of research into the actual job and speak to lots of people who were doing the job to figure out if it was what I thought it was and worth doing.
Then began the process of applying and actually getting on the course, doing it for 2 years and having no income for that period after 15 years of steady, reliable decent income. Graduating and starting on the same salary I was in receipt of a few years after I had graduated the first time some 16 years before .

5 years later I am very happy in my new role even though it’s very challenging but realistically I now earn a bit more than I did before I started all of this.
But I love my job, it’s very secure and I’m a million times happier than I was before.

And I fully accept this was all only possible due to my incredibly supportive partner, DSC who was well into teens and parents in good health.

It can be done but it’s very hard and not everyone is as lucky as I was.

@Bainbridgemews

there are obviously many career changers and absolutely there is a need for support boards for this.

however I think it is correct to hear voices from people who found it a challenge to change careers and the barriers they face. How many people are really aware of the salary drop that may be required of the necessity to work inflexibily to establish a new career? I don't want to discourage people from pursuing career changes but I do think we need to be honest about the scale of the challenge on some cases.

Very interesting thread.

Good vibes to all.

It's really unpleasant how "paying LARGE amounts of money to increase your formal educational level, retraining in a profession" has been sold to women, non-white people as the ticket to social mobility.

However, often no-one cares about the qualification if your face doesn't fit in other ways.

If you've taken out a loan to do an Oxbridge doctorate or one of those expensive Masters at 46, sure you might enjoy the intellectual challenge, but you're not going to end up in the upper echelons of British society if you weren't already wealthy and successful.

Universities and educational providers seem to be "big business" and right now a lot of what they sell is very diminishing returns financially and socially. Pyramid schemes.

If you're quite frugal and work and live in a lowish cost of living area that's probably a good move regardless of whether or not you're in a "professional job" or not.

Learning new things and education and being open minded is generally a good thing and getting through a qualification is an achievement.

However, it does seem like a dick power move by the Establishment to encourage certain groups to "chase the dragon" with retraining when they aren't going to personally benefit from it. Just line the pockets of certain institutions and groups.

As soon as women and non-white people started being encouraged to join, the conditions started to get shit.

This is a great article (I hope she makes loads of money she's a lovely writer) by someone who talks about the financial cost of getting to be an Ivy League academic.

https://amp.theguardian.com/money/2023/oct/08/us-student-debt-class-poverty-wealth

@StrangeNew It’s about being real. It’s about showing the reality of people who are stuck in jobs, and it’s about showing that education isn’t always the life changer it’s marketed as. It’s about the fact that for a lot of us, it doesn’t work.

We’ve all read inspirational articles about people who changed their lives, but what those articles don’t tell us is that those people could be fairly unusual. Those articles give us the impression that if you really want a better job, all you have to do is study or retrain, and yes it will be hard but you’ll come out of it with a better life, but they don’t tell us that it doesn’t work for everyone, or that most people don’t do this.

It’s like the alumni magazine that I mentioned earlier, with the guy who ended up doing a PhD at Oxford. What the article didn’t say is that this guy was unusual, because most people don’t get to do a PhD at Oxford.

And the situation is particularly upsetting for those of us stuck in rubbish jobs who keep being told to get a degree order to get a better one, so we got the degree but it still wasn’t good enough for people, so we’re still stuck in those jobs.

We have to show both sides of the story.

And it’s also to help people feel less alone. When you read these inspirational stories you tend to think, but why didn’t it happen for me? What’s wrong with me? Am I the only one? So it’s important to show that we’re not alone, and we’re not odd ones out, and the problem is with society and not us as individuals, and not something that we’ve done wrong.

Not quite the same as re training but I did try to get a management qualification through my employer. I'm a bit older and I don't have a degree and felt it would improve my career prospects. An 18 month course, thought yep, I can do that. My employer committed to giving me one day off a week to study and my husband promised to help out more around the house as there is an expectation that you will top up study in your personal time evenings and weekends. I think I lasted six months, husband didn't really help me that much and became irritated when I said I couldn't go out as I needed to study. Employer wanting to change my study day for staff cover etc and there were a lot more training days than anticipated. Elderly patients fell ill. Quietly disappointed in myself for giving up!

Seriously, well done for trying and don't think badly about failing - life with study at the same time really can take its toll

@BookBearRug

It's the fact it's in university's interests to get bums in seats for money. Universities therefore look as potential career changes as an income stream and there is no incentive to discourage applicants if the future career is in reality a difficult one to maintain.

It's no coincidence that we tend to do all our education before 25 (on average) as it coincides with a time when we tend to have limited family responsibilities and the cognitive bandwidth to take in new information (of course this can happen later but it is a little more difficult).

Also if you are trying to enter a competitive career it does not become less competitive simply because you want to change career; you are simply another of many able candidates)

Career change stories make great filler stories for the press but as always don't believe the press!

Yes, the main problem is that many successful 'career changers' do so by working their way up , sometimes through lateral moves. As you said not 're-training'. I don't quite agree with @Ginmonkeyagain r.e. grad/apprentice support.
For a start... official 'graduate schemes' are not the ONLY way for graduates to join a company. It's supposed to be an accelerated pathway, hence grads being given a lot of management support etc. But there are still graduates who take on entry level positions, etc.
Of course the former are going to have an advantage, but the latter are in the same category as any other new joiner. Given that most people, even those on the graduate scheme switch jobs quite frequently these days it's silly to presume that being on a graduate scheme is a massive advantage anymore.

The problem is that official 're-training' is a big money spinner. So all these institutions sell a story. To get you to spend £££.

As a programmer for example. So many people spend money on boot camps and these stupid 'MSc Computer Science'. Nurses, waitresses, teachers, whatever. I keep getting asked to mentor these 'career change' women. There was even a PP on here who trained in web dev and then saw the market flooded.

The majority of people got a much less sexy, 'non-tech' job then took every opportunity that came their way. I was a PMO, then app support, then became a dev. Other people started as PA's, did some simple scripting and automation with free videos, then took other opportunities as they came. Still others into, say , 'security' took part in some free competitions online. All involved hours of effort, working alongside their day jobs.

But many women have young families and have been sold a lie, do a 6 month bootcamp and you'll walk into a 40K job that's flexible, WFH and allow you to do school runs. Yes you may get the job but you'll spend hours of your own time figuring it out, technical jobs are a craft and there is no substitute for hours of sitting down and doing it. You'll get there eventually. But not after 6 months or even 2 years.

Telling the truth doesn't suit the prevailing agenda and the messengers always get shot so when I get roped into these things as an 'inspiration' due to my vagina I'm always polite and noncommittal. Except for some of the switched on ones who are clued in. Of course, outside of work I give people the proper advice.

I applied for several entry-level positions and they were no more accessible than the graduate schemes. When we talk about provision and support for graduates, we’re talking about all jobs that they do, and they don’t need to be part of any scheme.

As for programmers, I actually know quite a lot of them (all male) and absolutely all of them have been interested in programming from a young age. They all love programming and do it in their spare time as well as at work. They can spot the 6-month bootcamp people a mile off and it doesn’t tend to work out very well.

Ah, I was referring more to PP who was talking about the graduate scheme.
R.e. programmers. You don't have to do it since you were 5 but definitely, be willing to spend a lot of spare time.
Nobody told me what to do, I just Googled. I love it in fact just taking a short MN break before I go off to my next project...
Anyway, this thread is not about programming but it was just an example I find of an industry that feeds off selling expensive 'education' to people under the guise of equality.

Anyway OP. I hope that this thread makes you feel better. Maybe your opportunity will come one day but you are not a failure. Things are not as simple as 'can' or 'can not' career change. It's more of the probability of doing so based on various personal circumstances.

Thanks for the link @BookBearRug - that’s a fascinating piece.

I have met a lady with a Masters Degree in Psychology but cannot got any work at all within mental health, apart from a wellbeing role which pays a little above NMW. Another few young people I know who have left Uni with Degrees are only getting jobs that pay way less than some housekeeping/warehouse/courier roles. The world has gone mad!

@CrispsnDips well that's quite normal, you have to have a PhD to become a clinical psychologist, band 5's are nearly all roles held by qualifieds. What exactly did she expect? She would do best to try to get an assistant psychologist position but they are rare and the competition for such places is great. Most who get on have worked as band 3/4 for many years before hand and have taken part or ran psychology focused groups in that time. You have to be prepared to relocate, someone I know is commuting to Exeter from Bristol every day in order to get her PhD paid for by a trust. It's not something most people could do with family commitments.

Thanks to everyone who’s taken part in this thread so far. I’ve wanted to write it for months. Years, even. But I was too scared to write it in case I got told by a bunch of high-powered HR people that I hadn’t tried hard enough.

Yes, I think you're agreeing with what I said.

This thread really speaks to me. I did a degree at the usual age, in languages, then a Masters not long after, in translation. Was passionate about languages from a young age.

After that, I found it impossible to get any work in translation or even with languages as experience was required, which I didn't have. Then DH decided he wanted to do a degree, so I had to take the first local job going, to pay the bills. Then I got pregnant & had 10 years off between 3 DC. Did the odd freelance translation job but that was it. DH found work in his degree field & career really took off, but odd hours so I had to stay at home.

Now, I am working again, still a low paid local job, but I love it. Is public facing which I love, so maybe freelance translation was not for me anyway. But I am sad that I don't really use my languages, beyond learning another on Duolingo & holidays. But hoping I will in the future- maybe children's classes, maybe living abroad. My DC go to an international school & the French teacher there (who is French!) was convinced I was either French myself or a French teacher, so I am rather flattered & clinging on to the hope that I've still got it! But feel rather embarrassed about the waste of education, in actual fact 😔

We’ve all read inspirational articles about people who changed their lives, but what those articles don’t tell us is that those people could be fairly unusual.

On any topic, articles are written about the exceptions not the average. Most people know that. They wouldn't sell if they wrote about what everyone is doing. What would be the point of an alumni magazine writing about Bob who's an office manager and plays 5-aside on the weekend?

And Oxbridge wouldn't be able to maintain its "prestige" if it didn't restrict access.

It's the same with people with terminal illness - the exception who lives for several years with a "terminal" diagnosis running marathons or raising £££ for charity, those are the people written about and held up in the media. Whereas most people survive a few months and spend it distressed not "oh let's be positive and trek to the south pole".

How many people are really aware of the salary drop that may be required of the necessity to work inflexibily to establish a new career?

Why wouldn't you be aware of that? It's fairly obvious that if you choose to go back to the bottom of the ladder in a new career, you're not going to command the same salary or conditions as in an established career. It's mentioned on every retraining thread I see.

If this is intended as a mental health support thread, I don't think feeding each other's sense of sorrow or injustice is helpful.

Yes, it's sad and disappointing that something you were excited about and invested in didn't work out. You have every right to feel that for a little while before picking yourself back up. But that doesn't mean it's all a conspiracy.

I know someone who retrained to be a counsellor and has been successful in private practice which presumably has picked up through word of mouth.
They also teach counselling a local FE college.

Its a lot of years training though.
Charities are unfortunately never going to pay well