Is it really illegal to refuse to have a smart meter?

[ALongHardWinter]

This is what a friend of a friend told me yesterday. Is it true? My electric company have been sending me letters every few months for the last couple of years urging me to have one installed. So far I've dug my heels in,mainly due to all the horror stories I've heard about them - not working initially,or working initially then suddenly not working. I know at least 6 people who've had them installed that have had problems. Now I get told this!

And companies will breach the Code of Practice

Well how comforting. Companies will breach the code that's in place to ensure they behave properly towards their customers; yet we're supposed to believe that they only have our best interests at heart when it comes to smart meters.

As the saying goes - pull the other one, it's got bells on.

Companies will breach Codes of Practice currently when it comes to any kind of meters, billing etc

If you have a traditional meter,they could change you to a prepayment one now
And cut you off as well.

The ultimate aim of smart meters is to be able to charge different rates at different times of day.

Also load shedding where power to certain circuits can be reduced or switched off completely. Because it's more profitable to create an artificial scarcity by not investing in new capacity (see also: housing and water).

Really? seeing as a) my account is in credit b) I pay a monthly DD for my energy that currently is covering my usage and c) there are no issues with my account I'd LOVE to see the grounds on which they could do that.

You're not doing a very good job selling the energy cos as models of integrity and good practice here.

And that's the same for being converted to Smart prepayment meters - I have a Smart Meter, don't have any debt - so if they were to convert me to prepayment, I would take them to the Ombudsman and get compensation.

Because they would have had no grounds for doing that.

So are you in a position to state confidently that neither your company nor any of the others has told bare-faced lies and tried to force people on to smart meters?

Or do you claim that the government targets, with associated penalties for the companies if they don't achieve them, is just a conspiracy theory too?

Can you explain why just about no energy company has been contacting customers to say "we're offering these if you want them, but if you don't, that's absolutely fine"?

Why has it been down to ordinary folk and small campaigning organisations online to inform people that they do not have to legally have a smart meter, in spite of the persistence of the energy companies?

Can you explain how somebody with average intelligence will be able to actually reduce their energy use by having a gadget (that ironically runs on electricity) telling them that using appliances uses energy and turning them off (whether you need them or not) doesn't? Well, actually it does, with the considerable standing charges, but that's another matter.

In fact, can you explain why the energy companies would be so desperate to help us all to pay them less? Have you seen any McDonalds adverts saying "Mmm, I'm lovin' it - but our stuff isn't great for your health, so next time you want to eat with us, you really shouldn't"?

Do they really think that we'll all be fooled into believing that prices will come down across the board and then we'll all pay them much less in the long-term? How do they explain their concerted attempts to nobble their profitability to their shareholders? Fridges, freezers and many other appliances have become hugely more energy-efficient over the past couple of decades, but they seem to have 'forgotten' to have us paying much less to run them than we did back in the previous times.

Are the energy companies linked to the publishers who release the part-works with the first one or two costing 99p, but then they cost £10 each time - and why is the print telling you that there are 300 issues to complete it so very tiny?

Please do tell us which claims and info on here are demonstrably false - as opposed to just things that the energy companies would prefer that we didn't realise.

I would take them to the Ombudsman and get compensation.

People with smart meters will be doing that in the dark and cold.

People with non smart meters will still have their power while they deal with their energy company.

I know which group I would rather be in.

That's before you factor in the potential for the law to change to simply remove any need for compensation at all.

In fact, can you explain why the energy companies would be so desperate to help us all to pay them less?

Because if they had to build more power stations to feed extra demand they wouldn't be able to stuff shareholders pockets with gold.

I don't have one.

People have been brainwashed if they think that throwing out an old fashioned meter that works fine and replacing it with another meter that also has a hand held thing (that comes in the house and uses Wifi and presumably has some sort of battery) is environmentally friendly.

Refusing stuff that isn't needed is part of being environmentally friendly.

And don't give me any shit about needing the data to forecast energy consumption. My house of 4 people will use a similar amount to last year. And the year before. And the year before.

I know that my oven is a high electricity consumer. But guess what, I cook food in it for my family so kinda need it.

So all in all a pretty pointless contribution to the debate.

I've said further upthread.

Smart meters just make life easier for energy companies. It means they can hire less staff because there's less people tying up the phone lines calling up with meter readings. It's not some big conspiracy to cut people's energy off.

And don't give me any shit about needing the data to forecast energy consumption. My house of 4 people will use a similar amount to last year. And the year before. And the year before

I was with EDF for years, they sent me energy forecasts that were broadly accurate based on previous consumption. I'm now with EoN, they send me energy forecasts that are broadly accurate based on previous consumption. That's going back 13 years, and no smart meter. What do I need a smart meter for, apart from this hypothetical not wasting time reading a meter - which takes about five minutes once a month?

I am not even sure what you are debating.

Are you concerned about being converted to prepayment by a company if you get a Smart Meter?

There are mechanisms to prevent that - they need to have grounds to do that.
And steps you can take if you have been converted without these guidelines being followed.

Which is just the same as if you have a traditional meter and they try to convert you.

It's obviously much easier to do it if you have a Smart Meter - but it can be done if you have a traditional meter.

Smart meters just make life easier for energy companies. It means they can hire less staff because there's less people tying up the phone lines calling up with meter readings. It's not some big conspiracy to cut people's energy off

It's not my job to make life easier for energy companies.

I am not even sure what you are debating

Back atcha

Are you concerned about being converted to prepayment by a company if you get a Smart Meter?

Why would I be? I pay what I'm supposed to, always have, never defaulted.

Why the capitals for smart meter?

121516
vs
125116
And that's how an error happens.
Unless you've never entered a 6 digit number incorrectly?

How do you think people successfully manage to spend billions worldwide online every day, paying by cards that have numbers on them?

If somebody just isn't able to grasp that you need to carefully enter numbers and double-check before submitting them, they need much more support than a smart meter can give them. If you routinely mash the keyboard, click 'send' and hope for the best, there's a very easy way to remedy that without the need for any extra tech.

Jeez this is like trying to show a dog a magic trick. It is not illegal to have a dumb meter BUT energy companies have targets imposed by government to roll out smart meters and in any case all new meters will eventually be smart ones. You do not own your meter, your energy company does, so they have a right to replace it with whatever tech they wish, as long as it works.

Additionally they have a legal heath and safety duty to ensure meters are replaced after a certain lifespan.

Obviously they would rather do it with your permission but they do not have to have it.

As Mrs Danvers said, that's a 'them' problem rather than a 'me' one.

Reframing what you've just said, you could just as easily have used the same info to tell us that it's up to us to put loads of people out of their jobs.

And what proportion of people phone with their meter readings nowadays, instead of submitting them online? Some, I'm sure; but a minority.

What we're learning is that we as consumers are considered to be too stupid to understand basic concepts and/or we currently have far too much power in our hands that we need to hand over to the energy companies (and ultimately the government), because they're like our mums and they care about us and know what's best for us.

I'm also amazed at the people who apparently have never heard of mission creep - whether planned or not. Companies are currently 'not allowed' to do something (whether they obey or not), so we're supposed to believe that the law and circumstances will never change in the future?

It's the easiest thing in the world to get infrastructure and systems in place, with reassurances that we're all protected, and then later quietly remove those protections - as some may well suspect was the plan all along.

Anybody who is desperate to unnecessarily make you hand over some of your rights and agency to them, with promises and assurances that they won't ever abuse them, is simply not to be trusted imho.

It's a bit like the supposed 'fact' that we in the UK live in a 'democracy', where we have a benevolent-dictator monarch who has the authority to sign off or quash every single new law, but they promise they will never do anything that isn't democratically decided and will never interfere at all. Even if that were consistently true, why should we have to rely on somebody's goodwill not to shaft us?

Oh yes. And yet, in the charity I work for we still, frequently, have to support people to whom this has been done but the code has not been followed.
At least there is a code. But if it happens it's still not easy getting it resolved and usually the people it happens too don't have the personal resources to absorb the extra stress.
So, if I was on a traditional meter and in danger of not keeping up with my bills, I'd think twice before I switched to smart meter.
However, that said, there are advantages to smart meters which for some people can help them manage their energy use.
Each person's circumstances and considerations are different.
It isn't black and white smart meters are bad and traditional are good, or vice versa.
Depends on various factors, including your location (Cumbrian residents have a higher % of smart meter problems due to the geography for instance), personal circumstances (would seeing your energy use minute by minute paralyse or empower you), tariffs, company you're with etc etc etc

If the government want to shaft you, they'll do it with or without a smart meter. 😂

I didn't think MN was so full of tinfoil hatters!

No one said it was, it's just the reason why they're being pushed.

I didn't think MN was so full of tinfoil hatters!

Having an opinion you don't like and don't agree with isn't being a tinfoil hatter. And insulting people's intelligence and opinions is not an effective technique for winning people around to your point of view, either.

I'm not trying to win anyone over to my point of view though.

How many people still phone their readings in? Do it online then that's someone else less you have to interact with.

With the immense amount of advertising we've had on TV and from the energy suppliers (Octopus nag you about getting a smart meter every single time you navigate between different pages on their website), I'm sure that everybody who is interested has had their options made crystal clear to them, and been able to apply to have one installed accordingly.

However, there does come a time when you need to accept that consumers have choices, and if they're not interested in something you would like them to have/buy, you need to respect and accept that.

If an energy company has to go all Mrs Doyle and wear you down with their "Go on, go on, go on, go on" - maybe also using scare tactics and lies about why you 'must' have one - before you finally give in to having a smart meter, just to make them shut up and go away, this is their clear way of confirming that they do not respect you in the least as their customer and that they are perfectly happy with actively overriding your wishes and that they are content to have very unhappy customers; in fact, they have based their profitability plans around unhappy customers. This is not the way that a reputable company acts.

We see this in other ways, whereby many of the worst companies make you jump through hoops of fire to leave them (or even 'downgrade' what you buy from them) - whereas the ones who are both confident of their customers' satisfaction and also wouldn't wish to keep them against their wishes will have their (simple, functioning) 'Leave us' button prominently on their website's front page.