Labour, private schools VAT and universities

[BloodyHellKen]

Following on from the thread about Labour, private schools and VAT please could someone explain to me why we shouldn't be concerned that a Labour govt wouldn't remove tax exemption from universities also as they are also VAT exempt in the same way private schools are.

I'm not personally worried about VAT being added onto private school fees and I recognise arguments for and against but the possibility of VAT being added onto a university education does really concern me.

Anyone?

That’s exactly the situation in all the private schools I know. Many schools are now actually awarding scholarships with no fee remission whatsoever, and are increasingly channelling those funds into bursaries. I wonder if that balance will start to shift back if VAT is introduced, as a way of encouraging talented pupils who might find the fees too much of a stretch but who don’t qualify for a bursary.

Yes especially as we will probably see bursaries reduce. As this happens, scholarships could become more prominent up to around 20% to offset the VAT element.

Schools don't identify which DC are on bursaries but they definitely identify the Scholarship kids.

Exactly. Schools often publish names of scholarship children in the national newspapers and use the word “scholarship”. They most definitely do not release details of bursary recipients. The only way anyone knows if a child is on a bursary is if the parent or child tells other parents or pupils (and to be honest no one really bothers who’s on a bursary). The kids (and parents!) are, however, very interested in who gets awarded scholarships and it’s often very competitive!

Yes, there’s loads of made up information on these threads about the reality of state schools - you don’t automatically get contextual offers, my DS is in a 6th college and he only knows one person’s older sibling that had a contextual offer as they are a very low income family and qualify already for college bursaries, FSM etc.

It’s a complete level playing field so DS will be competing with private school DC for top uni places. We have family members who have already got into uni from private school and at certain unis it is all private school children in the accommodation- hardly indicative of a level playing field and actually tells you how much harder state 6th formers have it!

"bursaries in most private schools are NOT means testing" (sic)

Oh yes they are....absolutely they are. Anyone who has gone near the application process or works in a school knows it's extremely intrusive, typically requiring ongoing bank account access. Bursars I know have gone back through 5 years planning applications and turned down applicants because they "should" have been saving instead of building an extension.

If at the 5pc or 10pc level, typically it's for marginal feepayers who otherwise would be heading for a top state school. So the social benefit is mainly to the other kid who gets to go to a top state school.

There's also quite a lot of made up information about private schools too. Just look at @Idontfinkso

How on Earth do you work that one out? 🤣

Maths.

You may have experience of more schools. It’s not possible that your experience is as deep as teachers of many years’ experience. Sounds like you fly in and out of schools rather than seeing the day to day reality.

‘Sounds like you fly in and out of schools rather than seeing the day to day reality.’

Nope. Keep guessing!

Why don’t you just say how you can have more experience of more schools than teachers with decades of experience without being in and out then? Otherwise it looks like nonsense. I’ve worked in 6 schools for years each (varied - rural, urban, state, private) over 33 years and then another half dozen on and off for supply. I know much less about the supply ones and wouldn’t pontificate about how well I understood them.

It's the most extraordinary remark "I’m positive I have more experience in more schools than any single teacher could have in a lifetime." (my emphasis).

So, more than any of the half a million teachers in the UK. Of half a million people we don't know, our friend here is positive he/she is the most experienced in some way we're supposed to be guessing about.

File under "hyperbole"

‘I’ve worked in 6 schools for years ‘

and I’ve worked with, literally 100s and 100s, so there you go.

Which explains your fairly clueless remarks above, as you clearly don’t know any intimately

DS’ private school said if VAT does come in, they will reserve all scholarships and bursaries for the children that went through their primary school.

I asked about depth of knowledge. I know 6 schools really well. You have slight contact with 100 and 100s. How on earth are you not just flying in and out (which you earlier denied) if you are working with 100s? I’ve been in some of my supply schools a lot (a whole year full time then some part time terms for one) and I wouldn’t say I had a deep knowledge of them to be able to pontificate about them.
What is it you do that allows in depth work with 100s of schools in order to be able to comment from a place of deep knowledge?

So for parents who can afford fees any.
Not remotely surprised. But as they are a business that’s their choice- though I do hope they aren’t a private school who has that bullshit ‘charity’ status.

If DC are on bursaries it means that the parent can't afford fees. Most schools will now prioritise bursaries for existing DC. This will have a knock on effect on the wealth level of new entrants ie only DC whose parents can afford the full fees + VAT will be able to afford private schools.

so parents who can’t afford fees but are affording fess so therefore CAN afford fees will be given money off fees.
yes I get that.
What I don’t understand is how ALL these parents claim their schools let in so many free and subsidised students and yet somehow remain finically viable.

Lots of private school parents could only just afford the fees though. A combination of large fee increases because of inflation/TPS etc, plus VAT, means that many of those families now won’t be able to afford the fees and may need some assistance (through a means tested bursary).

You are being obtuse.
As has been explained to you previously: bursaries are means tested based on parental income. Around 20-25% of DC at private schools receive bursaries as their parents can't afford the full fees.
So what I'm saying is that the schools will prioritise bursaries for these DC and may extend scholarships which attract a lower % off the fees (typically 5-10%).
Existing parents who don't meet the threshold for bursaries won't suddenly be handed bursaries although interestingly the schools could do this as a way of minimising the impact of VAT for existing parents.

Why don't you understand? I thought you were familiar with the workings of 100s of schools?

sarcasm obvs didn’t come through!

Bursaries go to people who can't afford full fees. That's pretty much the definition. They can (today) afford the 60pc or 40pc or whatever they are required to pay, like some marginal full fee payers can afford 100pc, only just.

To your question: how schools offering financial support remain viable? In a few cases because they have large charitable endowments. In many more cases they fund bursaries either out of current parents' voluntary donations or by skimming off a chunk within the parents' fees. With VAT, all these arrangements become more challenging for obvious reasons.