Labour, private schools VAT and universities

[BloodyHellKen]

Following on from the thread about Labour, private schools and VAT please could someone explain to me why we shouldn't be concerned that a Labour govt wouldn't remove tax exemption from universities also as they are also VAT exempt in the same way private schools are.

I'm not personally worried about VAT being added onto private school fees and I recognise arguments for and against but the possibility of VAT being added onto a university education does really concern me.

Anyone?

Yes it was me that is fed up, as a state school parent, of hearing how rubbish state schools are. The vast, vast majority of state schools (89%) are good to outstanding, and, as the Ruth Perry case demonstrates, schools ranked below good can still deliver great teaching.

And (some) state schools being described as ‘complete rubbish’ is a direct quote from one of the prolific posters on this thread.

I don’t particularly believe we need ‘more choice’ - you (as someone with the disposable income to spend on private school) have choices that the vast majority of people do not.

In my experience many private school parents feel the need to either claim that state schools are all shit, sink schools full of feral children and disillusioned teachers where EVERYONE is miserable or their child is gifted/special in some way and therefore need ‘special’ provision to justify going private. Or a mix of the two.
The reality is, they’re buying privilege, grades and social capital because they can. Mainly
social capital, and are too embarrassed to say that.
The reality is most state schools are very good, and offer a much richer and more competitive environment than many private schools. Private parents don’t want real competition though, they want their child to get selected for the sports team, the school play, the whatever which is much easier when there are fewer children.

Do you actually have any experience of private schools?

The ones with ££££ will be able to keep on buying their kids a top spot at stuff, the ones who can’t afford to keep funding mediocrity though - they’re doing their child a massive disservice. Those kids are going to find the real world much harder to navigate independently

‘Do you actually have any experience of private schools?’

oh yes.Up close and personal as it happens, through work. And the state ones too. Give me a decent state school over ANY private one any day of the week for a diverse and rich education and experience.

Which is great if you live in the catchment of a good state school. Many of us don't.
Are you aware that funding per pupil in the North is lower than the South and that the NE has some of the lowest outcomes in England?
95 000 SEN kids attend private schools because their needs aren't met in state schools.

If you work alongside private schools then you will be aware that most are not like Eton etc and are ultra wealthy with endowments and reserves.

Not from me you haven't. I've repeatedly said that some state schools are excellent. The great inequality isn't between private and state, it's between good and bad state schools. And that's part of what I cover in the article above.

However would you deny there are some rubbish schools with feral kids and parents that don't care? I know a few dozen industry insiders with stories for you.

"The reality is, they’re buying privilege, grades and social capital because they can. Mainly
social capital, and are too embarrassed to say that."

Buying grades is much better achieved by buying an expensive catchment area and tutoring. Far better value-for-money to get your education free paid for by taxpayers, rather than slugging it out for after-tax income.

It's definitely true families are paying for human capital. but there's no evidence families are buying social capital (I take it you mean something to do with relationships and networks?). The "evidence" widely cited by the IFS / Private Education Policy Forum in support of your claim actually says the opposite...that independent schools support opportunities mainly through the mix of educational attainment and "soft skills"; and found no evidence at all for the claim of social capital.

And yet you said yourself that ‘from our point of view, local state schools are complete rubbish’.

How unfortunate for you that it’s not some state schools in your area but seemingly all of them?

What you said: "hearing how rubbish state schools are". What I said "local state schools are complete rubbish".

Do you see how what I said refers to some state schools?

Again, how unfortunate for you that all your local state schools are ‘complete rubbish’.

Not just one or two of them but all of them?

So yes, continually hearing state schools being called ‘complete rubbish’ (other posters use different descriptors) is tiresome.

One or two = all. Where I live. There's a really good one 35 minutes drive away, and an average one 15 minutes drive away, and I wouldn't have a hope of getting into either of them, nor would I really call them "local".

So that's the same as what I said, and I don't think is controversial: some state schools are terrific, and some are rubbish. It's not the same as saying "state schools are complete rubbish".

Part and parcel of more rural living - my DC’s school (not the nearest but the only one with in year places available when we moved into the area) is a 40 minute bus ride away. It has a big catchment and a very mixed socioeconomic demographic, as opposed to the nearest which is a church school that we’d struggle to get into anyway as we don’t play the going to church game.

In rural areas this is very often the case. It is exactly the case for us. Plus we are NE rural so the issue is magnified. Some areas do not have a multitude of schools to choose from hence we chose private over 2 x dire state secondaries.

You seem to have a very different experience from the rest of us who have vast experience teaching in both types of schools. Some state schools do indeed offer those things; many don’t. Some private schools do not offer these things; most do.

Okay, but I’m positive I have more experience in more schools than any single teacher could have in a lifetime.

‘Again, how unfortunate for you that all your local state schools are ‘complete rubbish’.

you hear this mantra over and over again from private school parents. Or the ‘little Johnny is special’ in some way mantra. We got a ‘bursary’ for dance, maths, cricket etc

bursaries in most private schools are NOT means testing - so that 5% discount for sport or academic whatever is there dinkire in the MC parents and make them feel better about going private.
Knocking £1k,£1.5k off fees of £15k is NOT creating opportunities for children who are genuinely gifted but in lower income houses.

Bursaries are MARKETING & there to try to protect ‘charity’ status.

You're confused. Scholarships with 5-10% discount aren't means tested. Bursaries, much bigger are.

You say you have close up experience of private schools, but I think perhaps your experience is somewhat limited, because none of the private schools I know operate in the way you have described. Of all the schools I know, bursaries are means tested. Scholarships (which sometimes give a small discount, but often now don’t) are not means tested and are based on aptitude in a specific area (academic, music, sport, art, etc)

Bollocks. How to tell you don't know what you are talking about!
Scholarships aren't means tested but bursaries are.
Scholarships are based on academic/sports/music/art ability and usually sit around 5-15%
Bursaries are based on parental income and range from 10%-110%

In our region - bursaries NOT generally means tested. Your ‘skill’ at whatever it’s supposed to be can get you a reduction.
Scholarships - few and I mean FEW are given ARE means tested AND the kid has to be genuinely gifted. The amount can range between 10% and 50% and very occasionally more.

But the words really are interchangeable. And the average private school is not financing pupils to the degree that WC or low income families can afford to send their child.

But that okay, because they ARE businesses, not charities. Which will be reflected in the changes around taxation to come.

Which region are you in because I still think you are mixing up Scholarships which are based on ability and bursaries which are based on parental income.
The words are definitely not interchangeable. Scholarships have prestige and attract extra support/showcasing etc. Schools don't identify which DC are on bursaries but they definitely identify the Scholarship kids.

The thing us, and I have been just as guilty of this, there is a huge diversity of practice across the independent sector such that we can claim, quite inaccurately, this and that to be typical. What you have described is very different to our old, but provincial school, which does provide 100 % bursaries alongside scholarships of 5%.

Indeed 7 Ukrainian refugee children are on such bursaries. They are behind hosted by school families.

Just Google the 2 terms and you will see the clear differences of each. In my County the 2 are exactly as I have said at every indi and I have done a random search of 5 others across the country and get the same results.

It is surprising that someone with such experience in the private sector doesn't understand this.

Which region are you in if you don’t mind me asking? It’s always good to know how different areas work so we can all understand the education system and how it differs across the country. I’ve never heard of such a system. I’ve only ever heard of means tested bursaries and scholarships which are entirely different. The words are most definitely not interchangeable at any of the schools I’ve come across (although it’s not unheard of for a pupil to be awarded both).

The ISC covers 80% of private pupils and says this
https://www.isc.co.uk/bursaries/what-are-scholarships-and-bursaries/.