Secondary school applications - your wishes vs your child’s

[MartinChuzzlewit]

DD is in Year 6 and secondary applications are now open.

She wants to go to the local school because her friends are going there and it’s literally round the corner so she doesn’t have to get up too early.

I want her to go to another school, one I went to, that is a 15-20 minute bus journey away and AFAIK hardly anyone in her class is applying, if anyone.

Local school is Ofsted rated good but I’ve heard about problems around smoking. The other school is rated Outstanding, and was a fantastic school when I was there and apparently is still fantastic.

I’ve had a chat with her and she’s firmly determined to go to the local school and doesn’t even want to look around other schools.

Ive said that come year 7 she will likely have a shift in friendships and anyway and over 7 years the other school is far better suited to her, in terms of academia and extra curricular activity.

Before it’s mention I do know that she may not get into further away school but I’d still like to try.

Those who’ve been through this - how do you come to a decision? Do you let your child go where they want? I feel like friendships will inevitably change completely anyway and that’s the only criteria for her going to the local school. I’d rather she tough it out and get the better education.

Your seemed to be focused on the schools has pupils who smoke (what school doesn’t?) and the fact you went there.

i think you both need to view both schools and take it from there but from what you have said I would go where she is more likely to feel happy and settled.

There’s a smoking problem as in most pupils are apparently doing it and loads getting caught. The other school has a zero tolerance approach to smoking and vaping

Knowing her like I do I really feel she will settle in the far-away school (well it’s about 4 miles!) rather than the local school

We did the following last year:-

1. Told our dc that the options are basically a lottery (which they are) and she needed to tell us which three schools she liked best for the form.
2. We told her that whilst she picked the three schools, we picked the order they go in. It's too big a decision (imo) for an 11yo to make, and they are usually 100% swayed by kids they want to stay with and kids they want to avoid
3. We visited every school it would have been feasible to get to. Literally sickened ourselves with visits.
4. Told dd that she gets what she gets, out of the three she picked, and if at the end of Year Seven she hates it We would move her

When we visited every school (including my preference which was my old school), we had to really focus on whether we could see our child fitting in there. Surprisingly, whilst we put my old school on the list, there was a school which blew and me dh out of the water so as dd was happy it being one of her three, we put that top. She got in.

Dd was the only one from her Primary placed there. The transition days really helped her settle, and she is doing fab there with new friends and new clubs etc.

I can't speak for what's best for your dd, but I think some core agreements between you and her need to happen - namely that you and her will visit as many as possible, that she can have an opinion, but parents make the final choice (which tbh isn't even a proper choice!)

I think a school round the corner will be much more convenient for making local friends, and being able to see them when she’s older without needing lifts etc.

A bus ride and longer journey home makes a big difference in the winter when it’s raining and dark at 4pm.

The school you went to will have changed completely since you went there I’m sure - all schools do.

It’s lovely that you have fond memories but I think you need to put them to one side and let your DD make her own fond memories.

If I had a choice of spending five years going somewhere just around the corner, where my friends were going, or trooping out to a bus stop in the rain and cold and taking a 20 min trip across town and back every day to where no one else I knew was going, I'd definitely be more inclined to pick A than B! I'd need some other really big push factor away from the close school or a big pull factor towards the far away school to win me around.

11 year olds don't care about Ofsted labels. They might care about something like they want to be a vet or a doctor and one school does single topic science GCSEs while the other only does double science, or they really like XYZ sport and one school has a team in that and the other doesn't, or one does drama and dance clubs and productions and that's something they want to get involved with... look at those sorts of things and see if the far away school really ticks boxes for her.

If I had a choice of spending five years going somewhere just around the corner, where my friends were going, or trooping out to a bus stop in the rain and cold and taking a 20 min trip across town and back every day to where no one else I knew was going

You only "don't know anyone" for a matter of days - not five years!

Alternative view:- "I had to spend 5 years at the local hell hole where tackling smoking was the least worst thing, and they don't offer the sports I liked or even have that good results, 20mins on the bus is nothing"

It's hard to say which school ops dd would suit better without visiting.

I don't think you can overestimate the lifestyle advantages that a school around the corner gives you. Local friends, easy journey home, not leaving your cohort. Those are not small things and can set you up for success later in life because of the security of your foundations. Struggle for better on paper doesn't automatically mean better in real life.

However I would not be putting up with any shit on the visiting schools front. If she is so determined to go there she can tell me exactly what is better about it and she can't do that without having seen it.

Ultimately the decision is yours not hers, but difficulty when you chose the alternative is extra difficult in my view. Different if it's your choice. I like the idea of her choosing the top three and you choosing the order. Again she can't do this without seeing other schools.

I personally would listen to your daughter. I was sent to a private school I didn’t want to go to over the grammar I had been accepted to. Hated school and didn’t work!! And yes I did smoke.

I wouldn't be so sure that the other school doesn't have kids smoking or vaping out of school hours. I saw some year 6 kids (they were in primary school uniform!) vaping elf bars before the summer holidays- vaping is a societal problem that is very hard to avoid, especially if your dd is travelling to and from school without an adult.

Has your dd seen both schools at an open day? I don't think that good vs outstanding is an issue but you know bothe schools so probably have better knowledge about stuff that you didn't mention in the OP.

Look at both schools with an open mind.
Ofsted Good vs Outstanding wouldn't bother me.

I went to a school 30mins by bus away. DD goes to one five minutes walk away... and after a year I'm really seeing the benefit of it being so close. She can pick and chose extra curricular as there's no transport issues. She closes to go at 8 to hang out with friends before school, but she could leave at 8.30 and be on time. She has time for homework, activities and seeing friends after school.

Its a normal, average comprehensive school... it caters for all backgrounds and abilities.

I’ve had a chat with her and she’s firmly determined to go to the local school and doesn’t even want to look around other schools.

I'd want her to look round but also I'd look at how realistic the 4 mile away school actually is - which will be very local.

Also depend on bus frequency etc - as waiting in rain and winter even for short bus ride is shit - there was no choice for my secondary education but it was school bus twice a day - it meant not doing after school activities - and hanging round all day for exams even if just an afternoon one.

Ultimately though I think the choice is a parental one - as 11 is too young to see big picture but Id focus on what best for her not your nostalgia.

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz I appreciate you would get to know people, but when you're 11 and are asked do you want to go where all your friends are going or somewhere else by yourself, you would make new friends... it's an uphill argument to have to make. I would still pick go with my friends even now, as I said unless there was a really good reason drawing me to the other school. A reason that mattered to me, not the objective on paper well school B is judged to be better than school A.

Only here to say that 4 miles in rush hour in my town is 2 x buses each way and can take well over an hour. I drive that distance to a hobby and the traffic is frequently a reason I just can’t be arsed to go.

How realistic is your application for your preferred school? I would put it as your first preference, and put her preferred school (which I assume is a banker?) at no. 2. It's a high birth rate year, even though it is a little lower than the current y7, and in most areas catchments are very tight.

There is literally not a school in the country that doesn't have a problem with vaping at the moment. I work in a trust with a variety of comps from gritty to leafy, and one of best friends is a housemistress at a major public school. We all have exactly the same issues with students vaping, hiding vapes around the school, developing physical addictions to nicotine, etc etc. It's everywhere.

I'd listen to your dd. My mum did this to me and my sister, we moved house when she was in year 6, both secondary choices were a short bus ride away, one being the school all my sisters friends were going to and where she wanted to go. My mum made her go to the other choice (which was all girls) because that's where our aunty on my dad's side went 2 decades before 🙄. My sister made friends but hated it, as did I. I ended up resentful because I wanted to go to the other school as that's where my friends went also. Missed most of the last couple of years as I hated it so much.

When my ds passed the 11+ I gave him 3 weeks before we had to apply by to think about if it's what he really wanted to do. So now I know he goes to grammar because he chose to and wasn't forced to.

As long as it's not an absolute dire school, just let your dd go where she wants to go because it's her who has to actually go to the school and do the commute.

I made a list of 5 schools. Ds went to taster days. I went to parents' open evenings.
Each visit, we made lists of pros and cons.

In the end we agreed on the choice. But things like smoking and Ofsted (completely untrustworthy) didn't come into it.

We both went and saw the schools for ourselves.

I’d also listen to what your daughter wants. This is not the time for you to relive fond memories, it’s her life and while you think she will make new friends quickly, not ALL friendships fall apart that were made prior to secondary. My son has been best friends with this young man since they were 4 years old! They aren’t in the same classes anymore but they have a meeting place at secondary and a large group of them hangs there- all from the same primary plus a couple new friends. Don’t underestimate the power of good friendships or the importance of being close to home. Both my kids walk home from school within 5 minutes and I am dreading when son goes off to college and has to be up in the pitch black to stand on a bus stop for a bus that isn’t always reliable. Snow, sleet, rain, cold, you name the weather, he will have to do it. It’s valuable to be close to your school if possible - and the main point - your daughter wants to go there! Trust me if she wants to become a smoker she will regardless.

Both of you need to go to both open evenings and then discuss it, having also researched logistics for further school.

I don't think 10yos are generally mature enough to pick their own secondary school. It should certainly be based on more than just friends / ease of travel.

Suggest you draw up some criteria: quality of education, extra curriculars of interest, behaviour, ease of travel, whatever and do a compare and contrast.

sit down and have a conversation with her. Explain that the only way to make good decisions is to educate yourself. In this case, this means you will both engage in open evenings and go look at the schools. You will then both put down 3 plus and 3 negative and you will look together at what you agree and disagree on. You will then have a joint discussion of how fair those plus and negatives are. Visit other schools that may be possible not just "your choice and her choice" discuss it with her as a participant in this.

I explained to my dd that things like " I don't like the uniform" do not count as a negative as the likelihood is that she won't like any uniform at the end of her time there. I agreed with the feel of buildings being important and distance plus how engaging the teachers came across. I agreed to not negative the HT speech (I really loathe them it's a personal thing) and if there were temporary buildings dd agreed to not count this as a negative. (in her case it would not have actually affected her as they were going into permanent by the time she would have been there)

At the end with dd1 we had 2 schools I preferred 1, she the other. We looked at the negatives and positives and the main negative she had was that she felt the buildings were far away and she did not feel safe walking like that. So we went with her 1st choice. with ds and dd2 we agreed on 1st choice so less of an issue with dd3 we discussed heavily and in the end agreed on the list. Her top 1 (was a long shot) my top 1 second (equal long shot) then a joint agreed 3rd and finally the banker. As it was we got her 1st choice and my 1st choice (our 2nd choice) she would not have gotten into that year..

However, by making her a part of the process but ensuring she was aware that this was not a decision that could be made on hearsay we did make joint decisions. This does mean you opening your eyes to the negatives of your preferred too.

Both need to look at both. I listened to my dd's wishes.

We were (a) very clear that no one gets a choice, just expresses a preference and (b) the school needs to be the right one for at least age 11-16 and a 10 year old has precisely zero experience of those years so is not best placed to judge.

But go to the open days and keep an open mind. Prevalence of smoking is a terrible reason to choose/reject any school.

Whatever you do, when she turns 15, you'll be to blame for making the wrong decision

I agree that in some circumstances a parent's view should overrule a child's when it comes to choice of schools, but in this case your argument doesn't seem very strong, in fact if I was a judge I'd be more persuaded by your daughter.
-You can discount your own experience, it will be a different place now, not least because of changes in education policy. Stop romanticising.
-Good vs Outstanding is often not an indicator of very much.
-Smoking - this sounds like hearsay and no doubt your preferred school will have its own behavioural issues, all schools do. Your daughter may well not take up smoking. A reputation for bullying or truanting would concern me more.

What do you mean about the curriculum and activities being better suited to her? Is this something she is likely to understand now?

On the other hand:
-Having local friends and a short journey to school is a huge boon, gives more time for other activities including homework.

I agree with other posters that you and your daughter both need to visit schools with an open mind.

It is also possible that where friends say they are going is not where their parents apply to in the end.

We have 2 schools near us A and B. At the end of y5 DD came home saying I want to go to B everyone I going to B. I thought it unlikely as Z's sister went to A, Y's parents were uninvolved and they lived right next to A, X's brother went to A etc.

In the end 4 went to B and the other 13 to A....