Ms vs Mrs ?

[happyfishcoco]

"Ms. is a general title that does not indicate marital status but is still feminine.
Mrs. is a traditional title used for a married woman."

I think I can address any woman as 'Ms.'
For example, if Mary Nelson is married to Peter Clark, she is 'Mrs. Clark,' but I can also call her 'Ms. Clark.'
However, my DH thinks this is incorrect because 'Clark' is the surname of Mary's husband, and we should not refer to her as 'Ms. Clark.'
So, what do you think? Who is correct?"

As another "older Mnetter" I don't remember that twaddle from the 70s and 80s at all @fiddlesticksandotherwords. Except that is for the feminist, although I prefer to call it equality aspect. Ms certainly wasn't adopted by lesbians as a specific category of people using it.

In the 70s and 80s, divorced women were known as Mrs Jane Smith (reverting to their own first names) rather than Mrs John Smith. Ms was never, ever for divorced woman, it was always a choice for ALL women who did not want their marital status known.

Certain, usually bigoted, sections of society drew their own, erroneous conclusions and made unsavoury suggestions and associations about women who preferred and used Ms. It was and is misogynistic.

No, we had different surnames but both chose our new surname.

All women are Ms., from birth to death, unless they choose or earn a different title. The surname a woman uses is entirely her choice and is in no way related to her title.

I disagree @Ponderingwindow. All women begin as Miss and then chose to adopt Ms, or Mrs upon marriage. They also chose whether to change their name upon marriage.

The "correct" form is the one the woman in question wants to be called.

On the technicality, your DH is wrong - a woman can be Ms with any surname

You begin as Miss, like little boys begin as Master, and change to another form when you want to. No link to marital status.

So if Miss prefers Ms, she can start using it at any point.

It would be unusual these days to be Mrs without being married, but that was also done in the past. Boys also choose when they move from Master to Mr (often earlier, as so many forms don't even have Master as an option)

Nobody is obligated to use a particular prefix. It is clear from this thread that every option is a preference for different reasons. Therefore the only logical option to ask each time - what would the lady in question prefer and not make assumptions.

Within the organisation where I work we use a default Ms. I am presented with a first and second name - no idea of marital status. This is in terms of official correspondence .

@ShinyAppleDreamingOfTheSea NHS? My title is not Ms, and Ms is not the default.

If you do not know the title you use the full name, for example: Jane Smith. You do not assume what the person's title is.

Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss don’t serve any purpose - can’t remember the last time I addressed anyone with one of these titles - forename and surname are sufficient.

I would always check how a woman wishes to be addressed and expect people to do the same with me. I think it is extremely rude to make assumptions about a woman's title. I disagree that using Ms is never incorrect and get extremely irritated if people refer to me as Ms rather than Mrs, unless it's the first time they have ever come across my name and couldn't know how I want to be addressed.

I completely agree with @Parker231, providing nobody else in any stakeholder relationship expects to be addressed with a title. If they do, then I expect mine to be used.

I usually go by Ms nowadays, I just find Mrs a bit strange. I'm married but kept my own surname.

General etiquette:

Ms as the default. (If you can't ask, are sending a first email query, etc.)

Ask their preferred title otherwise. Don't assume or assign.

Absolutely don't assume that you know a woman's last name just because you know her husband's surname!

Hope you never speak to my mother then. She is very quick to correct people who have the audacity to call her by her first name uninvited! She is Mrs Surname and god forbid anyone who is presumptuously familiar! 😂

I on the other hand am Mrs Husband's name because I like feeling part of him, old fashioned though that might be. But I really don't mind if people address me as Ms or just first name.

I disagree @Vriddle. If you don't know a person's title, the first contact is Dear Jane Smith, signed off as John Brown. If a title is offered, you then use it.

If no title were offered, I'd write the next email as "Dear Jane (if I may).

I work in a sector riven by titles and everyone is first name with the title at the footer only. My footer says Mrs. and gives my job title.

Unknown
Jane Smith
Head of Gymnastics

Dear Jane Smith

Yours sincerely
Julie Brown

Known and formal
Mrs Jane Smith
Head of Gymnastics

Dear Mrs Smith

Yours sincerely
Julie Brown (Ms)

Known and informal
Mrs Jane Smith

Dear Jane

Yours sincerely

Julie

Rude and inappropriate
Mary White

Dear Mary or Mary White

Yours sincerely
Dr James Price

Nobody should fail to afford another the same level of courtesy they expect to receive.

A High Court Judge would refer to the defendant in the Dock as Miss, Ms, Mrs, Mr Jones. Not as first name, surname.

Occasionally situations arise in a work context where you don't know the person's preferred title, are unable to check but are obliged to use one anyway. Like if it's computer says no. In that situation, Ms for a woman is indeed the default and the least worst option. There are certainly some women who don't like and will be offended by it, but that's true of every title, therefore you go for the broadest one.

I’ve been married over 25 years but it never entered by head to change to being Mrs Husband’s surname. I’m married to him but not a part of him. Any reason why your DH didn’t change his surname to yours?
DT’s have double barrelled surname as very important to DH and i that they had both family names- two long non English surnames has often being complicated for them as most people couldn’t spell one of their surnames, let alone the two of them!

Why would you need to know someone’s’title’? What relevance does it have?

These days my work is very first name surname, but I used to do data inputting as a temp. Sometimes systems required a title and you had to make an assumption. As such, Ms was the least worst available.

@MustBeNapTime My mother was the same. When the paramedics came to wheel her off for her final trip to hospital after a fall down the stairs, and referred to her as "Bluie", she responded with "my name is Blue, but you may call me Mrs Doodle." I think it was a way of clinging to dignity (especially as this had been lost in so many other ways.)

@fiddlesticksandotherwords my parents (born in the 1920s) thought exactly this. Though they would never have used the L-word out loud. Even the word "divorced" was used in whispered tones.

How can you "know" someone is a Mrs though? Do you mean if they've actually told you they use Mrs, or are you allocating the title to her because you know her to be married?
I'm married and I wouldn't thank you for calling me Mrs, it's not my title.

Any reason why your DH didn’t change his surname to yours?

Because I didn't want him to! I wanted to change my name. Just because it didn't "enter your head" to change your name, I am sure you were / are aware that many women do, either out of tradition or because they wanted to. It may be old fashioned, but I like being Mrs Husband's name. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside even now, 17 years later. And just because you don't feel part of your husband, doesn't make it wrong that I DO. You seem almost incredulous that someone might think and feel differently than you do. We are part of each other, call it soppy or silly, that's fine. You do you and we'll do us...

The bigger question is why the OP's dh thinks he gets an opinion on what a woman calls herself.

I use Ms as do all my friends- and one is single , one divorced rest married like myself. Mrs. was my mother in law.

and for work I always use Ms. even if I know their marital status.