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Government to *finally* look at banning XL bullies

564 replies

NoCharnce · 10/09/2023 18:57

Thank goodness. I cannot believe it has taken so long* to even look at banning these awful creatures (I say that as a dog lover). Looks like the viral footage of an XL mauling two men who were trying to defend an 11 year old girl is the straw that broke the camels back.

Tweet direct from Home Sec: https://x.com/suellabraverman/status/1700924751646982312?s=46&t=QlNZXgFJWDXuxa3K3yo7ag

*policy makers have been captured by the RSPCA/Dog’s Trust etc “it’s not the breed, it’s the owner” dogma

https://x.com/suellabraverman/status/1700924751646982312?s=46&t=QlNZXgFJWDXuxa3K3yo7ag

OP posts:
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25
bonbon2023 · 12/09/2023 15:04

@bombastix I've already said it would make no financial difference to me. It's a fraction

WarriorN · 12/09/2023 15:04

Bully type breeds were originally bred to bite and hang on to the noses of bulls. For bull baiting. Hence the strong jaw and grip.

We do not need dogs like that

Hayxx · 12/09/2023 15:04

Ban the breed and they will make another status dog, things won't change until people do, been going on for years unfortunately. You should at least have to take a course and have a lisence to breed any dog and face prison if you don't

Damnedidont · 12/09/2023 15:10

We need licenses linked to microchips and harsh penalties for owners who fail to control their dogs or who abuse or abandon them or fail to register them.

Superfood · 12/09/2023 15:11

bonbon2023 · 12/09/2023 15:04

@bombastix I've already said it would make no financial difference to me. It's a fraction

You did not say it would make no difference to you financially.

The exact opposite in fact.

You said it makes up less than half your income. That's pretty significant.

You also said you've worked (in some unspecified capacity, so presume you're a backyard breeder) with thousands of these dogs, which again suggests they constitute a significant part of your working life.

Your posts are coming from a place of massive financial interest.

Hayxx · 12/09/2023 15:12

Look at the pocket bullies and flat faced breeds like bulldogs and pugs, these dogs are bred incorrectly and cannot breathe along with a host of other ailments, this goes for temperament, a lot of the time it's the incorrect breeding of these animals that needs addressing, aggression is bred into the bullies instead of being bred out

bonbon2023 · 12/09/2023 15:22

@Superfood all your investigating has made me have to come clean. I'm a photographer yep just a boring photographer. No breeder of the breed so you can stop frothing now and wipe your mouth.

I'm simply standing up for a breed that I believe doesn't need to barbarically killed.

ToBrieOrNotToBrieThatIsTheQuestion · 12/09/2023 15:24

I believe that among people who've been killed by an XL bully recently included a man who was an experienced dog trainer.

I'm not sure if you're referring to Ian Symes - he seems to have been a classic case of "literally anyone can describe themselves as a dog trainer". I cannot imagine that any qualified dog trainer would think it a good idea to wind up an extremely powerful dog, instigating rough play including putting it in a headlock... especially when that enormous dog is one which your mate bought one day earlier from a travellers site. That's exactly what he did immediately before the dog attacked and killed him. https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/people/inquest-hears-popular-fareham-dog-walker-wiggy-symes-mauled-to-death-by-aggressive-xl-american-bully-with-warning-issued-to-public-4094391

Adam Watts I have significantly more sympathy with - he was running kennels and took in a dog seized by the police after attacking other dogs, and was attempting to rehab this dog. The system was working as it should, and while we don't know what happened immediately before the attack, it seems that he was an experienced man in a risky job who was incredibly unlucky.
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/scottish-news/9678110/dundee-killer-dog-tragedy-attacks-court/

Killer dog was involved in two street attacks before it mauled Scots dad to death

A MANIAC bulldog was involved in two terrifying street attacks before it killed a dad. Tragic kennel boss Adam Watts, 55, was trying to retrain the vicious XL Bully when it turned on him with tragi…

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/scottish-news/9678110/dundee-killer-dog-tragedy-attacks-court

placemats · 12/09/2023 16:12

The picture of the dog 'is so lovely and gorgeous' people will say if seen on Facebook. 'Wouldn't hurt a fly and I would definitely leave the dog with my toddlers and babies' is another.

placemats · 12/09/2023 16:16

bonbon2023 · 12/09/2023 15:22

@Superfood all your investigating has made me have to come clean. I'm a photographer yep just a boring photographer. No breeder of the breed so you can stop frothing now and wipe your mouth.

I'm simply standing up for a breed that I believe doesn't need to barbarically killed.

It wouldn't be barbarically killed though. I have had to put my cat to sleep. It was peaceful.

What about those who have been barbarically attacked and killed?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-66780321

Ana Paun

American bully XL dogs: Girl hurt in attack wants breed banned

Ana Paun says she was terrified when she and two men who tried to help her were mauled by a dog.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-66780321

Hayxx · 12/09/2023 16:31

Sorry I know prevention is better than cure but its awful to think innocent animals will be destroyed because of this, sterilise them and prevent future breeding if anything. We don't kill children/adults who show signs of becoming murderers we don't even have a death penalty anymore for those who have killed but that's another debate

PurpleMonkeys · 12/09/2023 16:38

bonbon2023 · 12/09/2023 15:22

@Superfood all your investigating has made me have to come clean. I'm a photographer yep just a boring photographer. No breeder of the breed so you can stop frothing now and wipe your mouth.

I'm simply standing up for a breed that I believe doesn't need to barbarically killed.

If WorcesterBosch released a gas boiler and they found 1% of them could release CO2 when set to 27.5c. No ones died but 5 kids had been hospitalised..

Would you want them all recalled and taken off sale?
Or would you defend WorcesterBosch for still selling them as long as they tell people not to set them at 27.5c..

Not all the boilers are dangerous.
It's on the owners to use them properly.
Etc.

How many people hurt or killed is too many? 10? 50? 100?

At what point would you pull the boilers from sale?

Genenomi · 12/09/2023 16:55

Hayxx · 12/09/2023 16:31

Sorry I know prevention is better than cure but its awful to think innocent animals will be destroyed because of this, sterilise them and prevent future breeding if anything. We don't kill children/adults who show signs of becoming murderers we don't even have a death penalty anymore for those who have killed but that's another debate

Humans control the populations of domestic and to a lesser extent, wild animals. Always have, always will.

We breed them to eat them, to use them for work, to keep them as pets. Therefore we have a duty to be responsible for our actions. These dogs WOULD NOT exist if it were not for the intervention of humans. We have caused a problem, therefore we have to solve a problem. Causing some distress to the idiots that thought it was a good idea to own this type of dog is a small price to pay. Dogs don't know they are innocent anymore than they know they're making a one way trip to the man in the white coat.

HalfSpoon · 12/09/2023 17:02

@Genenomi good point, well said.

Actually dogs wouldn't exist at all without human intervention. They are descended from wolves and over thousands of years have become this monstrosity.

placemats · 12/09/2023 17:06

Hayxx · 12/09/2023 16:31

Sorry I know prevention is better than cure but its awful to think innocent animals will be destroyed because of this, sterilise them and prevent future breeding if anything. We don't kill children/adults who show signs of becoming murderers we don't even have a death penalty anymore for those who have killed but that's another debate

Animals who kill are put to sleep. Even animals who are out of control are killed.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/breaking-rampaging-bull-shot-dead-29722801

Rampaging bull shot dead by police after 'charging at people' near UK school

A bull was seen charging at people on Wells Avenue in Haslington, Cheshire, yesterday morning, and pupils in a nearby primary school were put into lockdown before the animal was shot dead by police

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/breaking-rampaging-bull-shot-dead-29722801

bonbon2023 · 12/09/2023 17:08

@a boiler seriously 😒 😂

BeenThereDoneThat101 · 12/09/2023 17:22

I don’t think this should just be about banning certain breeds. The whole mindset needs to change.

How many posts do we see on the doghouse topic from people talking about how their dog is aggressive and they’re encouraged to find a “no kill” rescue to rehabilitate it, because it should be able to be done.

The law needs to be changed to the effect that rehoming an aggressive dog is illegal. Any dog which bites unprovoked should be destroyed. Rescues need to be banned from taking in these dogs.

If someone passes an aggressive dog to a rescue and that dog goes on to bite or kill someone then the owner as well as the rescue need to be made culpable.

That bloke who was attacked and killed above, while tragic, taking in a dog like that was irresponsible. If rescues must take these dogs on, then they should take them in and destroy them immediately.

PurpleMonkeys · 12/09/2023 17:28

bonbon2023 · 12/09/2023 17:08

@a boiler seriously 😒 😂

That's the best response you could come up with, thank you.

It proves your lack of critical thinking skills and shows that it's just dogs you'll defend and that you have zero issue with any amount of kids being hurt or killed.

Well done. 👍

placemats · 12/09/2023 17:32

bonbon2023 · 12/09/2023 17:08

@a boiler seriously 😒 😂

I thought it was an excellent analogy. I'm getting my boiler serviced next month, as I do every year, just like my car.

I would never own a dog that was bred to kill, no more than I would drive an uninsured car that failed its MOT, or have a boiler in my house that dangerous.

sophie12333 · 12/09/2023 17:32

agreed. They just need muzzling out of home. My neighbour has one and lets it run down the stairs. Its growled at me as ive opened my front door so i just shut it. I havent come face to face yet but im dreading the day as i hold my 1 year old daughter.
he doesnt seem to see an issue with a dog growling at me at all. Its stupid owners thinking their big baby inside wouldnt ever hurt anyone. It would to protect its family!

Hayxx · 12/09/2023 17:47

All of you in favour of destroying dogs that have not hurt anyone or anything with a responsible caring owner I cannot agree with. I also notice none of you in favour of this mention owners being punished either just the dogs which is a bit odd they will just go on to breed a different powerful dog and have the same issues 🤷‍♀️

placemats · 12/09/2023 17:50

@Hayxx that's a straw man argument.

ToBrieOrNotToBrieThatIsTheQuestion · 12/09/2023 17:52

BeenThereDoneThat101 · 12/09/2023 17:22

I don’t think this should just be about banning certain breeds. The whole mindset needs to change.

How many posts do we see on the doghouse topic from people talking about how their dog is aggressive and they’re encouraged to find a “no kill” rescue to rehabilitate it, because it should be able to be done.

The law needs to be changed to the effect that rehoming an aggressive dog is illegal. Any dog which bites unprovoked should be destroyed. Rescues need to be banned from taking in these dogs.

If someone passes an aggressive dog to a rescue and that dog goes on to bite or kill someone then the owner as well as the rescue need to be made culpable.

That bloke who was attacked and killed above, while tragic, taking in a dog like that was irresponsible. If rescues must take these dogs on, then they should take them in and destroy them immediately.

You are enormously oversimplifying the conversations that happen over in The Doghouse.

The conversations around dogs with behaviour issues usually revolves around "see a professional". Or to expand - see a vet because many new behaviour issues are caused by a medical condition (often pain-related), and then get a referral to a properly qualified behaviourist.

If the vets and behaviourists cannot make adequate progress with the dog, that is the point to start discussing PTS - with the professionals, not with an unqualified set of randomers on MN.

No one over there is advising rehoming as a first port of call where there are behaviour issues - no one. Indeed, rescues tend to fall into two categories - the open intake ones (e.g. Battersea) who will take any dog but will put some down, and no kill ones (e.g. Dogs Trust) which are highly selective in their intake policies and will not knowingly take a dog with significant behaviour policies - but they will still PTS for severe behaviour issues. The trouble with the no kill rescues is that they effectively just displace the problem dogs elsewhere while polishing their own halos.

Behaviourists can work absolute wonders. My own dog developed a really significant issue with visitors after a house move - he wouldn't let anyone through the front door except me and my DF, and it was aggressive. I had to lock him in the bathroom if a tradesman visited, and couldn't even consider having friends over. We took one trip to the vet, who referred us to a properly qualified behaviourist, who solved the issue with one lesson and quite a lot of homework. A few weeks later, the dog was convinced visitors were there to play fetch with him, and we were conducting a series of lodger interviews. No problems since then.

Aggression doesn't come in the binary "aggressive" or "non-aggressive". A great many dogs look aggressive from the outside in certain situations, and are absolute gems outside of that. Mine is terrified of one particular breed that weighs 4x as much as him and will run up at them barking given half a chance. We avoid the breed like the plague, though I know there are a couple of owners of said breed that justifiably think he's an absolute twat. Outside of that I frequently get compliments about how well-behaved he is.

Most people with trickier dogs employ a combination of a behaviour modification plan (from a behaviourist), with some management techniques (like avoiding triggers).

The trouble is that when you're talking about a dog like an XL Bully, there's just no margin for error. If the dog is capable of dragging you down the street, and it has behaviour issues, there's no way you can safely put in place a behaviour modification or management plan. If the dog is aggressive towards the owners and is ultimately stronger than them then there's no feasible way to put in place a safe behaviour modification or management plan.

ToBrieOrNotToBrieThatIsTheQuestion · 12/09/2023 17:56

PurpleMonkeys · 12/09/2023 16:38

If WorcesterBosch released a gas boiler and they found 1% of them could release CO2 when set to 27.5c. No ones died but 5 kids had been hospitalised..

Would you want them all recalled and taken off sale?
Or would you defend WorcesterBosch for still selling them as long as they tell people not to set them at 27.5c..

Not all the boilers are dangerous.
It's on the owners to use them properly.
Etc.

How many people hurt or killed is too many? 10? 50? 100?

At what point would you pull the boilers from sale?

While I see what you're trying to say, I'm not sure that a boiler is the best analogy seeing as

  • people aren't emotionally attached to their boilers. It's not like we take a picture of our boiler, frame it and put it on the mantelpiece either.
  • there are no ethical issues when it comes to replacing a faulty boiler
  • the boiler in your example is far more predictable than an XL Bully
Takoneko · 12/09/2023 18:30

I don’t think banning all bully breeds would be a proportionate response to the issue.

There’s a huge difference between an XL Bully and a Boston Terrier or French Bulldog.

Bull breeds aren’t all huge hulking beasts. Boston terriers are significantly smaller than cocker spaniels. It would be absurd to ban them just for being bull breeds.

Even Staffies weigh significantly less than springer spaniels. There are loads of “Staffies” out there that are really crosses with much larger dogs, but an actual staffy is a small to medium sized dog of 11-17kg. Springer spaniels are significantly bulkier at 18-23kg.

I do think action needs to be taken on the XL bullies though, starting with compulsory sterilisation and a ban on breeding. I don’t think they should all be seized and destroyed, but the breeding needs to be cut off. I also think compulsory muzzling of the breed in public should be brought in.