Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Original poster

School closures due to crumbling concrete

284 replies

HoliHormonalTigerLillyTheSecond · 01/09/2023 06:02

JFC you are kidding me?!

https://amp.theguardian.com/education/2023/aug/31/english-schools-told-to-close-buildings-made-with-crumble-risk-concrete]

OP posts:
Thread gallery
24
Piggywaspushed · 06/09/2023 13:54

1dayatatime · 06/09/2023 12:51

@Piggywaspushed

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/there-are-no-signs-of-government-borrowing-shrinking-any-time-soon/

https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2023/apr/12/uk-national-debt-will-continue-to-rise-over-next-five-years-says-imf

The Government now spends more on just debt interest payments than it does on the entire education budget.

Raising taxes on the wealthy has also always been a popular electoral message so long as the "rich or wealthy" are not them with a typical voter position as follows:

Voter: "I think the Government should spend more on [insert area where voter's selfish interest is - for example the retired want higher pensions, young families want more on education and everyone wants more on the NHS]
Question: OK how are we going to pay for it?
Voter : By increasing taxes on the rich
and cutting spending in other areas
Question: OK so who are the rich ?
Voter : Basically anyone earning about 30% more than me but most definitely not me.
Question: what areas would you cut spending on?
Voter: Basically any area that I don't benefit from for example the retired wouldn't spend any more on education and young families wouldn't spend anymore on the retired.

Currently the top 1% of income earners pay 30% of all income tax revenues, 48% of income earners don't pay any income tax because they don't earn enough. So to make any significant increases in income tax revenue the level of tax rises required on the top 1% would simply be unworkable. Current levels of taxation are at their highest for 70 years.

In short the old popular policies of borrowing to invest or taxing the rich are broken and are no longer an option (see the Spectator article).

There is a very good quote from Alexander Fraser Tytler in 1799 which is neatly summarises our current position:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy"

Anything to say about tax loopholes, tax avoidance and tax evasion?

Would garner far more money for the treasury than 'benefit cheats' if energy was put into this.

I'm nudging 'rich' and would pay more tax.

Piggywaspushed · 06/09/2023 13:56

That list doesn't include fee paying schools, of which there are several.

1dayatatime · 06/09/2023 15:36

noblegiraffe · 06/09/2023 13:36

You’d have to show that it would be cheaper to remove a universal benefit and pay to set up and administer means-testing than it would be to keep giving it to everyone.

It doesn’t always save money.

Agreed that means testing can cost more than the savings it produces which is why it is simpler and cheaper just to make universal payments such as winter fuel, free bus passes etc a taxable benefit. Therefore only the wealthiest (and tax paying) pensioners would pay.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

General education
1dayatatime · 06/09/2023 15:42

@Piggywaspushed

"Anything to say about tax loopholes, tax avoidance and tax evasion?"

++++

Again we have to look at how much this costs to implement versus how much is raised.
Tax evasion is illegal and legally it should be enforced.
Tax loopholes/ avoidance does need to be stopped and the Government/ HMRC is trying to do this but firstly there is the cost benefit of doing so and secondly it is a game of whack a mole where as soon as one loophole/ avoidance is closed another is created.

In short I am fully in favour of enforcing illegal evasion and also closing loopholes etc provided it generates more tax revenue than it costs to collect.

1dayatatime · 06/09/2023 15:49

JenniferBooth · 06/09/2023 13:34

Nobody stated that disabled people would get their benefits removed

Pure obfuscation and sailing close to gaslighting. 1dayatatime sugessted that housing BENEFIT should be removed and a lot of pensioners are disabled. And housing benefit is not paid to rich pensioners Its paid to poorer ones.

Actually if you read my post, you asked what free stuff do pensioners receive. I replied:

• Free TV Licence.
• Council tax reduction.
• Housing benefit – for those who pay rent.
• Cold weather payments
Bus pass and other public transport concessions eg trains

I did not necessarily suggest the removal of these benefits. Indeed I would agree with @noblegiraffe that means testing often costs more to implement than it saves.
I am however strongly in favour of making them a taxable benefit for those pensioners wealthy enough to be paying tax

I would also introduce NI taxation as well as the current income tax on such wealthy pensioners.

EffortlessDesmond · 06/09/2023 15:53

So if you do that @1dayatatime , my unclaimed, unused bus pass becomes taxable? The law of unintended consequences says that if this becomes too rigid, eventually the golden geese flee the coop.

Tax minimisation (avoidance) is legal, but from my days in financial services in the US in the 1980s and the City in the 90s, for every legislator or civil servant endeavouring to write a watertight section of tax code, there are three much better paid tax accountants and attorneys out to keep their clients ahead.

JenniferBooth · 06/09/2023 15:59

Oh come on 1dayatatime THIS is what you posted

And local authorities cannot keep funding free stuff for pensioners anymore

I asked What free stuff and one of your replies was housing benefit.

Own it

1dayatatime · 06/09/2023 16:04

@EffortlessDesmond

"So if you do that @1dayatatime , my unclaimed, unused bus pass becomes taxable? The law of unintended consequences says that if this becomes too rigid, eventually the golden geese flee the coop.

Tax minimisation (avoidance) is legal, but from my days in financial services in the US in the 1980s and the City in the 90s, for every legislator or civil servant endeavouring to write a watertight section of tax code, there are three much better paid tax accountants and attorneys out to keep their clients ahead."

+++

Yes your unclaimed bus pass does indeed become a taxable benefit but it is your choice whether to claim it or not. Also there is still a cost of providing a bus service which you could use for free whether you choose to claim your free bus pass or not.

I also agree with your comment about tax avoidance and loopholes which is why it is important that the cost of closing avoidance/ loopholes is less than the additional tax revenue raised.

EffortlessDesmond · 06/09/2023 16:06

TV license is only free to the over-75s.
Council tax rebates can be 25% discount for single occupancy (same at any age) or for those receiving Pension Credit (on £156 pw). Although Council Tax is not due on receipt of a dementia diagnosis, and will be back-dated to that date if the person had continued to pay it.

I could live with the winter fuel allowance being clawed back if the pensioner is still paying income tax and completing a tax return.

1dayatatime · 06/09/2023 16:10

JenniferBooth · 06/09/2023 15:59

Oh come on 1dayatatime THIS is what you posted

And local authorities cannot keep funding free stuff for pensioners anymore

I asked What free stuff and one of your replies was housing benefit.

Own it

Please read the posts:

At 20.53 @TheThinkingGoblin posted local authorities cannot keep giving out free stuff to pensioners.

At 22.52 you replied "what free stuff ", but presume because you felt that they didn't receive any "free stuff"

At 23.55 I replied with a list of all the free stuff pensioners get, including housing benefit for those that rent.

Presumably the only pensioners in receipt of housing benefit would be those on low incomes which is why if you did make it a taxable benefit then they wouldn't have to pay any tax on it anyway as they are in low incomes.

User135644 · 06/09/2023 17:01

TheThinkingGoblin · 03/09/2023 21:14

Maintaining and upgrading basic infrastructure like schools, hospitals, roads, bridges etc is basic governance.

That should have been 4% of GDP like other developed countries.

The UK made a mistake in the 90s when they reduced that to 3% But what has been criminal was the reduction since 2010 to 2%.

The constant short-termism that is crippling the country is a byproduct of dozens of raids on basic spending in order to pay for the bungs of the various beneficiaries (bankers, OAPs, NIMBYs etc)

England is failing now because of the constant "kicking the can down the road" while reducing critical spending on infrastructure, while giving political bungs has hit the proverbial wall.

It will take decades to fix this. And its also the number one driver of why our productivity is so shit.

People still don't understand the scale of the problem. We are talking about £200B+ of work needed just to get our existing infrastructure up to a basic standard.

People call me ageist on here for telling OAPs we cannot afford their triple lock when the infrastructure around them is crumbling.

And here we are. The buildings are now starting to crumble and this is just the tip of a very large problem going back 30+ years.

And yes, it will absolutely start killing people. Just a matter of time.

Show quote history

Tories HATE spending money on anything that doesn't generate profit. Given we mostly get Tory governments then infrastructure is ignored.

Labour clearly have many faults but when they get in after long Tory rule everything is falling to bits.

stbrandonsboat · 06/09/2023 17:48

Someone from Tory HQ must have been up all night trying to work out how to screw the population for more money to pay for this shit.......by sending the disabled out to work. Wonderful. I suppose at least then they won't be stuck inside their crumbling council flats waiting to be squashed by a falling lump of concrete.

The 70s was like some sort of utopia compared to this.

1dayatatime · 06/09/2023 21:27

@User135644

"Tories HATE spending money on anything that doesn't generate profit. Given we mostly get Tory governments then infrastructure is ignored.

Labour clearly have many faults but when they get in after long Tory rule everything is falling to bits"

++++

To be honest I don't think failure to make long term investments into infrastructure it is necessarily a Tory thing or a Labour thing. It is more a function of short termism by all Governments.

When elections are every 5 years why spend money on things like infrastructure that give benefit for say 30 plus years and will benefit subsequent Governments. If you want to get re elected then spend it on short term things like more generous benefits or capping care home bills or public sector pay etc.

EffortlessDesmond · 06/09/2023 21:54

It's bipolar politics. If the Tories think this, then Labour must oppose it. The common good should be the ultimate goal of all politics. So fed up with both parties. A curse on both your houses.

1dayatatime · 06/09/2023 23:22

EffortlessDesmond · 06/09/2023 21:54

It's bipolar politics. If the Tories think this, then Labour must oppose it. The common good should be the ultimate goal of all politics. So fed up with both parties. A curse on both your houses.

Actually it's not the fault of the politicians but the fault of voters.

So let's say there is £10 billion available to spend. Party A promises to spend it on infrastructure giving a small but long term annual benefit to the economy for say 50 years. Party B promises to spend it part on slightly higher benefits, part on slightly lower taxes and part on higher wages for nurses.
And let's say that overall Party A policy gives the significant greater economic benefit.

Guess which party gets elected and gets to be an actual politician rather than a candidate.

HashBrownandBeans · 08/09/2023 15:48

I’ve just been contacted by ITV news via Facebook as they are investigating the link with council homes also built with RAAC. I grew up in one, they’d found something I posted on a local group about ten years ago about growing up on this particular estate. I politely declined the interview, don’t fancy being on the TV!

TheThinkingGoblin · 08/09/2023 17:21

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

JenniferBooth · 08/09/2023 18:59

October 23 Sorry but we are going to have to decant you to a hostel cos there is RAAC in your building.
March 24 We are going to have to rebuild
April 25 Sorry but new flats are for sale only!!

elfies · 09/09/2023 02:20

Pensioners and their employers paid in to a pension fund for many years . The government paid NOTHING towards it and were merely guardians of that fund , They had no authority or right to access the fund , but they did . So pensioners are only getting back what they purchased ...a pension ..........much eroded by successive governments .They are not eating the young , nor do they have reason to apologise .

wonderstuff · 09/09/2023 08:46

That isn’t how state pension works, it’s always been working people paying for those currently retired. It’s a state benefit just like any other, there’s never been a state pension pot that was invested, NI goes into general taxation.

TheThinkingGoblin · 09/09/2023 11:15

elfies · 09/09/2023 02:20

Pensioners and their employers paid in to a pension fund for many years . The government paid NOTHING towards it and were merely guardians of that fund , They had no authority or right to access the fund , but they did . So pensioners are only getting back what they purchased ...a pension ..........much eroded by successive governments .They are not eating the young , nor do they have reason to apologise .

There is no "fund".

This is the problem with British folks. A complete lack of education.

You don't seem to understand anything.

You paid a pittance in NI over the years, and now you are getting an SP 2x as large as what you paid in.

Your generation is actively making the entire country poorer right now.

This is being brutally exposed by the latest set of events.

christonnabike · 09/09/2023 19:44

TheThinkingGoblin · 09/09/2023 11:15

There is no "fund".

This is the problem with British folks. A complete lack of education.

You don't seem to understand anything.

You paid a pittance in NI over the years, and now you are getting an SP 2x as large as what you paid in.

Your generation is actively making the entire country poorer right now.

This is being brutally exposed by the latest set of events.

Show quote history

Oh here we go, any bloody opportunity.

TheThinkingGoblin · 09/09/2023 20:52

christonnabike · 09/09/2023 19:44

Oh here we go, any bloody opportunity.

Show quote history

You are ageist against the young.

Thats what you are.

Full stop.