I would like to ask questions about God/Jesus/Christianity with people who have faith (not non believers),

[BlockPreventor]

the reason I say that, is because I have been a non-believer my whole life and I know that POV.

I went to a CoE primary school so I think I know alot of the Bible stories and messages but not in any depth because my family was devout atheists. And I am a scientist.

however, at the age of 50 I think I might be 'finding faith', I don't really know what the term would be. there have been events and circumstances that I don't particularly want to go into, that have led me here. I have spent a lot of time in Church recently and have found it really comforting. I have prayed and I feel lighter. I can totally get on board with the ideology (as far as I know it). it fills in some of the holes left by science too. but I struggle with a lot of the actual belief in a creator and sacrifice of his son. I have a load of questions, but for starters;

1)if there is a creator, would she be female? it makes no sense that it would be male

2. if you join God in heaven when you die, how do all the graves open to raise the souls, when Jesus returns? aren't they already there?

3. I don't understand the logic of sacrificing Jesus for our sins. how does that help?

4. I'm not keen that heaven is for believers and non-believers don't make it. there are some abominable people who would get into heaven and some amazing people that wouldn't. I don't even want to go if it's full of douches

TIA

can you tell me please, what signifies pentecostal church...my childhood experience is CoE and Methodist. the church I have been going to recently is Pentecostal.

I don't speak for Christians. I know there's a God. The rest of it is just how I personally choose to thank God for all the good things he created.

1)God is neither male nor female but patriarchal society has us refer to Him as He.

2. I am dual body and soul. My soul will have eternal life after this life. Whatever happens to my body will be revealed in time. I hope for bodily resurrection like Christ's.

3. It's complicated. You might want to read theology. Or ignore this for now.

4. Think of heaven as being with God. Everyone gets what they choose which may well not be with God or may be oblivion which isn't a bad thing. I don't even think of heaven as a place where everyone is together. The universe is a big place before you even think about other dimensions.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/God-Not-White-Man-Revelations-ebook/dp/B08996MJCS

this Is a really interesting book about your first question!

So many interesting and thoughtful answers here. Can I ask one question that I really struggle with as a non- believer. How do the Christians interpret and justify suffering if God loves his/ her creations and sacrificed his son for the humanity (as ultimate sacrifice). Why so much suffering of those who are truly innocent and did not have any time to sin or commit any sinful acts (like youngsters with illnesses, in a lot of pain, abused, etc). Wouldn't the almightly being alleviate or not allow this? In particular with the view of the Lucy Letby case. I have discussed this with several people who are religious, attending church, etc and none have actually were able to give any real explanations, apart from that these souls are suffering because of sins of their predecessors, which to me sounds like a very cruel attitude from God if it is true.

this is an issue that I have always had with God

but if I understand correctly, he doesn't control everything in this world

@user2207 - again, not an easy one to respond to in a short post. ‘The sins of the fathers’ thing though technically having a root in scripture is bullshit theology.

What many Christians will reach for is what’s called theodicy - a theory about how a completely good God allows bad things to happen.

The most common theodicy is some version of ‘because God wanted/had to allow humans free will’. The ‘had to allow’ version is difficult because God shouldn’t have to do anything.

But there’s a strong voice in Christianity over the centuries that says any kind of theodicy just doesn’t work. If we come up with some neat answer to this problem then we’re not doing justice to the depth of human suffering or to the incomprehensible beyond everything-ness of God.

That sounds like a cop out and maybe you think it is but the best versions of this “answer” then go on to say ‘what can we say God wants us to do about suffering?’ Then they talk about accompanying people in their suffering, trying to see where God may be. Caring, healing, reconciling but also leaving space to say ‘this is beyond fucking awful and I just don’t know where God is in this’.

The other thing I think is interesting is the accounts of people who have been through great suffering but retained their faith. Again that’s not an answer but it is something I reflect on.

I'm not keen that heaven is for believers and non-believers don't make it.

I was raised Catholic, and I sort of still am, but don’t believe that at all. I don’t know anyone who does either. I can’t say exactly what Catholic teaching is (I’m never did catechism at school or anything) but I think it is about intent. I think to get to heaven people need to demonstrate love for others. And need to be sorry when we don’t love others. And that’s pretty much it. Those who do that get eternal life with god - our sins washed away and only our goodness remains so there’s no badness in heaven. I believe that organised religion (of all types) helps some of us be more loving, but others don’t need that guidance (and plenty misuse it). Faith is an option for those of us who need an obvious, direct relationship with god to keep us on the straight and narrow.

This sort of links with Jesus saying we need to go through him to get to the Father - the new commandment to love one another is what he brought to us. The old commandments were helpful in telling us how to actually behave but humans had made it all complicated and made up a whole lot of other rules - we missed the important point. I also think that’s what I see in some of the Church’s more recent teachings (eg burning witches, homosexuality being wrong etc). To me, to be Christian is to follow Christ in his message of love.

I do believe in hell though. If a person acts with no care of others, or is not sorry when they cause pain then they don’t get to heaven. The don’t get to live in a place of pure grace (goodness, happiness, love). I think they get actual nothingness, emptiness, true death.

I don't understand the logic of sacrificing Jesus for our sins.

I think there are two bits to this. For both, I think it is important to see Jesus as a teacher and guide as well as god. God would not have come to earth is humans were already on the correct path - he came in the form of Jesus to help us get there.

Firstly, humanity was (and still is tbh) obsessed with vengeance. The idea that when someone does wrong we must make them pay (and lots revel in watching the sinner suffer). That is the exact opposite of love. In one way, I think Jesus died to tell us all that the payment for sins has already been made and we need to stop torturing each other.

Secondly, there’s the problem of forgiveness. Jesus taught us that we are forgiven if we are sorry for our actions. That’s great - a clean slate just by being sorry! But it is really hard to accept that the worst among us get forgiven too (if genuinely sorry). But Jesus (tortured to death having done nothing wrong) demonstrates that if we love enough we can forgive even those who harm us terribly (as he forgave those who put him to death).

Many Churches offer Alpha courses , which go through all the basic aspects of Christianity. If you go to alpha.org.uk and enter your location it will lead you to a local Church that offers it.

Why so much suffering of those who are truly innocent and did not have any time to sin or commit any sinful acts (like youngsters with illnesses, in a lot of pain, abused, etc).

I don’t think suffering (on earth) in linked to sin in any way at all. Innocent or not, everyone suffers - usually at the hands of other people. I believe in the “free will” argument. The right to make your own decisions is the first, and most important, gift given to us. It was given by god when (s)he decided to make conscious beings. Some abuse the gift to cause suffering, but many more use their gift to love others and increase the total happiness in the world.

I don’t have an answer for suffering due to natural causes (eg disease, earthquakes etc) though - that’s one I struggle with myself.

The 'justifying suffering' is the really easy bit

We have 'free will' - so we fucked it!

The environment, democracy, slavery, homophobia - ALL on us

God did not create us to suffer, we suffer because we (collectively) have free will

So all those 'Christian's' out there being homophobic/exploiting people getting rich off the backs of others - all because of 'free will'

All 'sin'.

I don't think that the awful things in this world are from God or even allowed by God for some "higher purpose".
I think in this world, while things are imperfect, we are still in a battle between good and evil. God has ensured the final outcome through the victory of Christ but we don't see that outworked completely in this life. Sometimes Christians call it living between the "now and not yet".

Jesus tells a parable about a man who showed wheat in his field but then an enemy sowed tares (thistles) and the two types of plants grew up together. His workers wanted to immediately pull up the tares but the farmer said not to because the wheat would be pulled up with it as they are so entwined. He said to wait until the wheat was ready for harvest, then the wheat and tares could both be harvested and separated and the tares burned. Eventually evil will be separated out but not yet because good and evil are so entwined, even within ourselves sometimes.

God has become human and experienced and entered into our life with its suffering and he is also a God of redemption. He can take that which is evil and redeem it for good. That doesn't make the bad thing good or something that God has done, but that he can triumph even in evil by redeeming it.

However, I also agree with@PumpkinSoup21 that sometimes we have to agree that something is beyond awful and that we don't know where God is in it and that we should follow God's example by being with people in suffering, and seeing where we can participate in helping healing and redemptive work .

*Then they talk about accompanying people in their suffering, trying to see where God may be. Caring, healing, reconciling but also leaving space to say ‘this is beyond fucking awful and I just don’t know where God is in this’.

The other thing I think is interesting is the accounts of people who have been through great suffering but retained their faith. Again that’s not an answer but it is something I reflect on.*

this is what I have been witnessing and it is what made me do a double take at religion, after all these years of not believing @PumpkinSoup21

Pentecostal churches tend to be quite happy flappy but also quite socially conservative

I was in a Pentecostal church 30 years ago, my abiding memory is all my friends got married at 19/20 so they 'didn't live in sin'

So, some very socially conservative

I am a Roman Catholic and my understanding (in relation to your first question) is based on The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) #239 which states, in reference to the Father: "God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He is neither man nor woman: He is God."

Jesus Christ Himself, refers to Almighty God as 'Abba'. Abba translates to daddy or father. Since Christians believe that Jesus is the fullest revelation of God, they must hold that He most fully reveals how we, by grace, should understand God: as Father.

Traditional imagery and the language of God as Father is discussed in further detail in the CCC if you are interested.

thanks @LaurieFairyCake , so would CoE be less socially conservative?

does 'flappy happy' refer to all the singing?? I liked that aspect. it wasn't old fashioned hymns that I remember from church...more modern, dancing and clapping along?

@SanctaMaria is that why Abba the band, are called Abba, is it a religious reference??

5. are there lots of different flavours of Christianity, just because they developed in different places??

6. why did God make people in the first place?

Abba the band are called abba because it’s the first letters of their names joined together!

@LaurieFairyCake thank youxx
I did try the Methodists but the reverend/vicar? didn't understand my questions and it was so loud they wouldn't turn the speakers down so I had to sit in the foyer with headphones on.
This stuff you know, why don't they teach it in all churches instead of the fire and brimstone stuff? Can I ask how do you know you are right?

oh! 🤣🤣🤣

A4) Heaven is a possibility for everyone. Even those who do not know or acknowledge Jesus! To live a good or godly life pleases the Lord...remember whilst on the cross Jesus offered eternal life to a repentant thief. The thief was not Christian! From this we can be sure that hope of resurrection is open for all.

The above resources are great but can I encourage you to talk to your Pastor. I can assure you there is nothing more he would like than to answer your questions. He can also point you to the right bible passages or books that can explain the basics or maybe something that is already going on in the church. Never be afraid of asking questions. The ESV Bible translation is excellent, Start in the New Testament with Mathew and pray God will open your eyes and heart to understand his message. God is drawing you near. I will be praying for you 😊🙏

@Thintelligencerising it is not easy to teach it in15 min chunks!

It tends to be taught on 'going deeper' courses- preparation for ministry or home groups. There are blogs you can follow too.

Also earlier you asked about people from different faiths. My belief is that there is one god. We find or recognise the divine differently according to our culture. I was brought up Christian, so I interpret things in that way. If I were from a different faith I'd see things differently. I'm reaching towards the divine using the tools I'm familiar with, rather than declaring who god is and what god is like.

I'm a Muslim. I hope it's ok to give my point of view, not sure if any Muslims have already. I was brought up in an atheist family too.

Muslims believe that God is neither male or female, and in fact has no human traits as the creator can't resemble the created.

I don't quite understand your 2nd question sorry and it may only apply to Christian perspective. We believe souls will be resurrected for judgement day. My own understanding is that this realm will be so different that the physical laws of this world won't apply.

Muslims believe in Jesus as a prophet and not the son of God (as having a son is a human trait). we don't believe Jesus died for our sins, as each person takes responsibility for their own actions.

Muslims believe that all people will pay for their actions in the next life, but that anyone with even an atoms weight of faith will enter heaven in the end.

What an interesting thread. Thank you for starting it, OP. Can I ask those more knowledgeable - would you describe this conversation as philosophy, RE, or Divinity category? I would like to take an OU couse that looks at exactly these sorts of topics & ideas, but I don't really know what it's classed as?