Page 22 | Lucy Letby - new thread (part 2)

anonymousamy · 2023-08-26T21:32:27+00:00

A thread for anyone who was on the last one and wanted to continue the discussion. What I cannot wrap my head around is Letby’s seemingly completely normal upbringing. Usually serial killers have displayed some kind of markers by the time they start killing, but AFAIK she literally had none. 100% believe she is guilty BTW - just cannot begin to understand it.

BIossomtoes · 28/08/2023 21:07

EmilyBrontesGhost · 28/08/2023 20:55

You sweat under oath to tell the truth. He couldn't ask people to come and lie about the evidence to fit a narrative she's innocent.

There was no evidence.

None at all.

Yup. So little evidence that it took six months to get through it.

Russooooo · 28/08/2023 21:25

Well, when there is only one defence witness. And that witness was a plumber I don't think we're looking at one of the best legal systems world wide.

What I see is us looking at a kangaroo court.

@EmilyBrontesGhost

Do you understand that the defence choose which witnesses to call?

DaphneDeloresMoreheadRidesOn · 28/08/2023 21:32

I'm not sure @EmilyBrontesGhost has a very extensive understanding of criminal trials in England

Janieforever · 28/08/2023 21:34

EmilyBrontesGhost · 28/08/2023 20:55

You sweat under oath to tell the truth. He couldn't ask people to come and lie about the evidence to fit a narrative she's innocent.

There was no evidence.

None at all.

The trial took ten months, ten months of evidence. I understand you personally don’t know what evidence there was. But this doesn’t mean there was no evidence. Far from it.

lifeturnsonadime · 28/08/2023 21:41

I wish I could understand the psychology behind those who are determined that there must be a miscarriage of justice or that there is no evidence rather than accept that psychopaths can walk amongst us and that LL is guilty as convicted.

It feels very disrespectful to the families of the babies murdered and harmed that people are going to such lengths to deny the validity of the justice that has been served.

BIossomtoes · 28/08/2023 21:46

I don’t understand it either. The amount of pain suffered by the parents is indescribable and now they’ve finally got justice it’s being dismissed. It defies belief.

itsgettingweird · 28/08/2023 21:48

EmilyBrontesGhost · 28/08/2023 20:55

You sweat under oath to tell the truth. He couldn't ask people to come and lie about the evidence to fit a narrative she's innocent.

There was no evidence.

None at all.

🤣🤣🤣🤣

There is literally no other sensible response to that 🤦🏼‍♀️

itsgettingweird · 28/08/2023 21:49

lifeturnsonadime · 28/08/2023 21:41

I wish I could understand the psychology behind those who are determined that there must be a miscarriage of justice or that there is no evidence rather than accept that psychopaths can walk amongst us and that LL is guilty as convicted.

It feels very disrespectful to the families of the babies murdered and harmed that people are going to such lengths to deny the validity of the justice that has been served.

Well said.

lifeturnsonadime · 28/08/2023 22:04

I'd find it really hard to ever accept my ds could do what she's done. Even if found guilty. Parental love doesn't have an off switch.

I was talking to my husband about this.

I do understand her parents, it reminds me of (and I know it's a novel but it's based on reality) Lionel Schriver's We Need to Talk About Kevin novel which was based on Columbine.

It is possible , I think, to know that you child is guilty of horrific and unthinkable crimes but to still love your child as that love is innate, it's not an infatuation like you get with romantic love but primal and biological. I don't think her parents are to blame for moving to be closer. Their child will spend the rest of her life incarcerated. Even if they no longer feel the same love for her on account of her horrendous crimes they might feel responsibility as her parents to be close and to visit.

It's an impossible situation, one that most of us will have the fortune never ever to experience.

TomPinch · 28/08/2023 22:29

978q · 28/08/2023 12:42

"See my post upthread for one very obvious real-life example. If the murderer in that case had sought to argue that the first set of post mortem findings exculpated him because she couldn't have been shot, he'd have been laughed out of court"

The difference is that your post bears no comparison, there are 5 reported natural causes for those resultant deaths and one inconclusive, in the Letby case.

Perhaps like Tom, you think that people who were nowhere near the PM table for the babies PM's, just came to a different and better conclusion, than the obviously incompetent original pathologists, who got it wrong 6 times.

I've explained to you at least three times why the post-mortem reports were irrelevant. I will try again.

The trial court had to come to its own conclusion about the cause of death. It did so after hearing a whole heap more evidence than was available to the people who conducted the post-mortems. I don't see why this is at all surprising and it doesn't reflect on anyone's competency: the court simply had more information to go on (including everything the original pathologists had), and that extra information meant they came to a different conclusion.

The defence could, I daresay, have called the pathologists who conducted the post-mortems but if you think about it you ought to see why it would have been pointless.

Really - please tell me what part of this you aren't getting. 🙂

978q · 28/08/2023 22:34

lifeturnsonadime · 28/08/2023 21:41

I wish I could understand the psychology behind those who are determined that there must be a miscarriage of justice or that there is no evidence rather than accept that psychopaths can walk amongst us and that LL is guilty as convicted.

It feels very disrespectful to the families of the babies murdered and harmed that people are going to such lengths to deny the validity of the justice that has been served.

Tell that to the family of Sally Clark, I am sure they will welcome your sentiments, or Stefan Kiszko, Angela Cannings, Donna Anthony or Trupti Patel, to name a few of the many, all convicted by jury for baby killing...wrongly, pace certainly helped them, not.

TomPinch · 28/08/2023 22:34

EmilyBrontesGhost · 28/08/2023 19:18

In the meantime justice has been served in the way that the law of this country, with one of the best legal systems world wide has allowed.

Well, when there is only one defence witness. And that witness was a plumber I don't think we're looking at one of the best legal systems world wide.

What I see is us looking at a kangaroo court.

The English legal system is the parent of various well-regarded systems around the world, the closest being Australia, Ireland, NZ, Canada and, to an extent, the US and criminal procedure has some similarities. In all of them it's up to defence how to run their case and who to call. Letby could have chosen to call more witnesses. The fact that she didn't suggests to me that she simply didn't have much of a defence.

WhiteFire · 28/08/2023 22:52

978q · 28/08/2023 22:34

Tell that to the family of Sally Clark, I am sure they will welcome your sentiments, or Stefan Kiszko, Angela Cannings, Donna Anthony or Trupti Patel, to name a few of the many, all convicted by jury for baby killing...wrongly, pace certainly helped them, not.

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What makes you think that LL is similar to them? Other than Stefan they were all accused/ convicted of killing their own children so in no way remotely the same.

(And Stefan was for the murder of an 11 year old, not a baby and that was an appalling miscarriage of justice and in absolutely no way anything like LL)

978q · 28/08/2023 23:05

"What makes you think that LL is similar to them?"

I do believe you are serious.

JanieEyre · 28/08/2023 23:08

EmilyBrontesGhost · 28/08/2023 19:18

In the meantime justice has been served in the way that the law of this country, with one of the best legal systems world wide has allowed.

Well, when there is only one defence witness. And that witness was a plumber I don't think we're looking at one of the best legal systems world wide.

What I see is us looking at a kangaroo court.

Do you even know what "kangaroo court" means? Quote: "a court that ignores recognised standards of law or justice, carries little or no official standing in the territory within which it resides, and is typically convened ad hoc".

What exactly was it about the ten month trial with an independent jury and highly experienced lawyers provided without charge that you say complies with that description?

You do realise that the choice of witnesses was down to Letby and her lawyers? That she could have called as many witnesses as she wanted, if she had been able to find them? That expert witnesses appeared at a pre-trial hearing but weren't called at the trial, probably because their evidence didn't help her?

EmilyBrontesGhost · 28/08/2023 23:10

978q · 28/08/2023 22:34

Tell that to the family of Sally Clark, I am sure they will welcome your sentiments, or Stefan Kiszko, Angela Cannings, Donna Anthony or Trupti Patel, to name a few of the many, all convicted by jury for baby killing...wrongly, pace certainly helped them, not.

Show quote history

Exactly.

So many miscarriages of justice.

The idea that the justice system is perfect and justice is done in all cases is a very dangerous belief to hold.

JanieEyre · 28/08/2023 23:10

EmilyBrontesGhost · 28/08/2023 19:36

She had one of the best defence lawyers, don't you question indeed why she didn't have any further defence witnesses?

Yes, I do question it.

I very much DO question it.

So who do you think should have been called as witnesses?

WhiteFire · 28/08/2023 23:16

Yes, I am being very serious.

All the babies that these mothers were accused of killing had underlying genetic reasons for their deaths that were not explored / known about at the time of conviction, so, no, not the same as LL.

Now, I would like to hear why you think they are.

JanieEyre · 28/08/2023 23:19

itsgettingweird · 28/08/2023 20:27

When a very well respected and successful defence barrister can only find a plumber for the defence ......

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Just on a point of information, it's not the barrister who goes out looking for witnesses, it's the solicitors. But the point is of course still a very valid one, as she had well-respected and successful solicitors working in conjunction with highly reputable counsel.

WhiteFire · 28/08/2023 23:19

Oh I get it now, there has been some wrongful convictions in the past so that immediately means LL is too.

Why is the argument not that many parents correctly are locked up for the killing of their children so LL is correctly locked up too?

JanieEyre · 28/08/2023 23:27

EmilyBrontesGhost · 28/08/2023 20:55

You sweat under oath to tell the truth. He couldn't ask people to come and lie about the evidence to fit a narrative she's innocent.

There was no evidence.

None at all.

So what do you say was happening during that 10 month public trial if they weren't producing and calling evidence? Were they just playing games on their phones or something?

978q · 28/08/2023 23:33

WhiteFire · 28/08/2023 23:16

Yes, I am being very serious.

All the babies that these mothers were accused of killing had underlying genetic reasons for their deaths that were not explored / known about at the time of conviction, so, no, not the same as LL.

Now, I would like to hear why you think they are.

I never mentioned LL you did, I did mention your sycophantic lauding of perceived British justice though, hope that helps.

EmilyBrontesGhost · 28/08/2023 23:39

JanieEyre · 28/08/2023 23:27

So what do you say was happening during that 10 month public trial if they weren't producing and calling evidence? Were they just playing games on their phones or something?

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They were going through the circumstances of the deaths of each baby,

There were a lot of babies (sadly) very ill premature babies.

So of course it took a long time.

TetherMetherPip · 28/08/2023 23:41

Trupti Patel is an odd one to include in that list - she was acquitted.

Also, a conviction being found to be unsafe, is not the same as being found to be innocent. It means they didn’t get a fair trial. It’s doesn’t actually mean they didn’t do it…

WhiteFire · 28/08/2023 23:43

This is a thread about LL, so if you think those cases bear no similarity to her why did you specifically bring those ones up?