Lucy Letby - new thread (part 2)

[anonymousamy]

A thread for anyone who was on the last one and wanted to continue the discussion.

What I cannot wrap my head around is Letby’s seemingly completely normal upbringing. Usually serial killers have displayed some kind of markers by the time they start killing, but AFAIK she literally had none. 100% believe she is guilty BTW - just cannot begin to understand it.

I wasnt aware of the NCA expert database, only the lexus nexus one.

Dewi Evans wrote an email to the National Crime Agency in May 2017 offering his services to Chester Police. It seems that the police subsequently got in touch with the NCA who recommended Evans.

@LizzieSiddal

Seriously doubt they didnt speak to each other. There whole lives would be intertwined. There kids would go the same schools. 60 officers. How many high schools in Chester?? Well there is only 30 in the whole of Cheshire west and that covers a geographical area of half of the county.

Did each parent have their own family liaisons officer?

So my point about you lot not understanding how un populated Cheshire is, stands. The countess is the only hospital in Cheshire west...

@LizzieSiddal

"Each baby who died was given an individual officer to look into their deaths"

Not

"..I knew there was going to be a case to answer because otherwise he wouldnt be gathering people in. I was given a couple of babies to investigate..."

@Cailleachian

I thought that was suspect. That and the them not speaking to each other.

Its not unusual to expect they live locally and the children go the same schools. Especially when there really are not that many around. I am sure they were gathering evidence for 4 years. It's a long time not to speak to people you work with. 🙄

Personal feel like the case is more of this was one to make all those officers careers. The one murder they ever do so they were sure it was her as its a let down if its just incompetence within the hospital. Nobody is interested in the stillbirth rate among one of the lowest risk populations in the country!

https://apple.news/AH6FllCMxQhu8j17G3SyYsQ (links to the Sun) but yes another nurse under investigation.

It's certainly unusual aspects overrall

I realise I should have answered this more directly given how the discussion has gone subsequently.

I expect the PM reports were part of the police investigation file. As such they'd have been disclosed to the defence. But because it's unlikely that the reports would have been admissible as evidence in the trial, neither side would have produced them.

@CakeForAll21 JFC. Do you actually think that the entire prosecution’s case was compiled and presented by the village PC Plods in Cheshire? This was a multi-agency, multimillion pound operation that far exceeded any kind of policing you think you’re referring to. An embarrassingly foolish take.

That is weird , it's the type of thing you do for a kid..
like for Christmas I sign some of the presents from Santa and the cat , so they aren't all from me , but my dd is 6 ..
it would be a weird thing to do for an adult

I was reading about narcissistic parents who infantilise their children
What Is Narcissistic Infantilization? | Psych Central
and it really presents like what happened to Lucy
especially this sentence stuck out

In many cases, parents with NPD see their children as an extension of themselves. As a result, they may have a deep-seated need for control. Sometimes, a parent with NPD may step in and do things that the child can do for themselves, which can stunt the child’s mental and emotional development.

it reminded me of the disciplinary hearing her parents inserted themselves in to, make you wonder how often her parents took over her life..
and I am not saying that is why Lucy did what she did, but its very telling
they smothered her and she hated it

@ANewNameANewDay

Litterally are you that naive. How does a case become a multi million pound cross force operation.?? The local police force had to decide there was a case and call in for help....

Fyi if you can read welsh there are articles posted in 2017/18 before they suspected anything untoward saying the hospital was 1 of 25 given a red rating l. How did this case get picked up and what happened to the other 24 hospitals??

The police force made the case around letby but still we fail to answer the stillbirth rate and the shockingly high deaths post letby. Not saying she was innocent but the case was a bit anecdotal and yolkleish. What was it 6 out of 31? What about the other poor babies. Who killed them...

@truthhurts23

My mother in law signs my birthday cards from the dead pets, with little angel wings. I wouldn't put it past crazy cat people to do this as normal.

She also insists that she is referred to as mum or your mother by her husband and not her name. I am not even her kid.

So yeah some odd people about

that's true its not always sinister, some people are just eccentric..

I see poster on this thread suffer the same level of delusion as LL and her family.

The hospital consultants are out to get her
The police are stupid and corrupt
The experts are wrong and only in it for the money
The defence was deliberately bad/ incapable

The only one not to blame is LL- poor innocent LL who is the actual victim here. Apparently.

It beggars belief that people can twist the known facts (and add some they pulled from their bottoms) to make nothing LL’s fault. It doesn’t work. You’d have to suspend all belief to make it work and it shows a real lack of critical thinking skills.

But I’m going to stop replying to those posters now but it is obvious they’ve watched too many American crime dramas and don’t live in the real world.

For those wondering about the air in the stomach.

Every single person who feeds a child via ng or gasostromy tube knows these risks from the training. That's parents, school staff, HCPs - EVERYONE.

It's called dumping. It's when you syringe milk into a person too quickly. It can cause the stomach to push up onto the diaphragm (a bit like the feeling when you eat too much!)

It's the same with air. Lots of people tube fed have them tube attached and opened to allow air to escape before feeding. Especially those who have limited free movement to live trapped wind around independently.

That's why feeds are often given via gravity. (Put in tube and allowed to enter at a gravity speed and the syringe is held up and down to manage the speed). It's also why most tube fed people have a pump which controls the speed the feed is put into the stomach.

Sometimes with small babies and less than a ml of food a syringe will be used.

Buts the absolutely no way IMO an experienced ICU nurse or even nurses were accidentally dumping over and over again causing the diaphragm splinting.

That's why I believe it was all deliberate. That's one of the procedures (for want of a better word) that you don't need to be an ICU nurse to carry out.

If she doesn't appeal would you consider that's because she knows she's guilty?

Re PMs reports they aren't what you think.

For example - recently - take covid deaths. A PM may record that someone died of cardiomyopathy. That was the cause of death. Except they had cardiomyopathy because they had covid.

Someone may have cancer. The cancer being terminal. The cancer will be the reason they died. But they may have actually died of pneumonia or cardiac arrest. Again the cancer and chemo would have caused this but the cancer itself isn't actually what causes the death.

A PM report isn't the black and white conclusion people would assume it to be.

And the defence team would have had the opportunity to call the coroners as witnesses and cross examine them if they felt it would help their defence case.

The question is - why didn't they?

I cannot imagine how you begin to come to terms with the fact your daughter is a serial killer of babies. From what I know I feel immensely sorry for them.

^^This. More than one thing can be true at a time. What happened to the victims and their families is horrific beyond words....and there is a sad tragedy here for Letby's parents who are in no way responsible for what their daughter did if the biggest ill anyone can say about them is they loved her and doted on her too much.

It wasn't 6 out of 31.

Perineal deaths and neo natal deaths are different.
I absolutely agree the hospital has a case to answer.

But things aren't mutually dependent on each other. You can have a serial killer nurse and be crap.

In fact it's the fact the management were crap it was allowed to go on for so long.

Don't forget all the parents of those bandies who said how rude she was. Said she did and said x y and z. They obviously colluded too.

Oh and the other parents of babies she wasn't investigated for who complained about her use of words and how rude she was too.

Interesting tweets from Shaun Lintern re non-co-operation then retirement of the coroner in 2017 - presumably will be explored in the forthcoming enquiry. The new coroner hasn't been in post that long so maybe there was a gap which can't have helped

Regarding submission of PM reports as evidence - the data from them was definitely used throughout the court case even if not called PM reports so not sure what the issue is here

The defence could have used the PM reports. Why didn’t they?

@truthhurts23

Perhaps but my dm was as far from narc as you can get, a totally selfless person which signed off as a pet name.

However dh, dm is a narc and she actually infantises here children in am different way eg buys their clothes and tries to rearrange house though married with dc, will try and buy outfits and so on.

Perhaps in this case the card was part of it but in itself, no.

Also re police they started off individual then after a few months talked regularly

@FixItUpChappie

Perhaps but not if they are, or one is a narc.

@CakeForAll21 *
Seriously doubt they didnt speak to each other.

I didn’t say they didn’t speak to each other at all. I said they didn’t speak to each other about the case.

Have you actually read much about the investigation? Cheshire Police recieved a letter from the hospital about the rise in neonatal deaths and they then spoke to 2 of the doctors. Following this they prepared notes for the neonatologist but there was no suggestion made that it was foul play at all. Only when they heard back from the expert was it suggested some were deliberately harmed- that's when Operation Hummingbird was set up and they recieved funding and resource from other forces. The approach was in line with broader recommendations, each baby was looked at separately as not to risk a case being built around a hypothesis. Even if you think the police are crap or whatever their work was essentially tested in court with some of the best lawyers the country has. If it was problematic it would have been picked up. Its very ignorant to assume they just get Bobby's off the beat who haven't encountered complex crime before to lead this when even in rural areas with historically low levels of crime there are experienced and knowledgeable, professional investigators.

The reports are not evidence: I've explained this further up.

The evidence that was used to create the report would be evidence and would have been presented to the jury.