Lucy Letby guilty - part 2

[twoandcooplease]

Thread 1 Lucy Letby guilty www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4875009-lucy-letby-guilty

Just in case anyone wants to keep the conversation going

Completely agree with this post

The mum apparently said 'take me I did it'

I read this on another thread so that might not be true, but if it is, thats more than just being supportive parents, I find that quite an odd thing to say

Yes, dying to know @mollyminniemo how you would use the state of that bedroom to demonstrate that she must be a murderer. Do tell us your methodology.

BeenThereDoneThat101 agree. Her father also needs to fall under scrutiny as it was he who threatened to report Brearey and Dr Ravi Jayaram, to the General Medical Council unless they withdrew their allegations and welcomed her back. So thanks to him, they were forced into writing a letter of apology to her abs thus then delayed things even further.

@BeenThereDoneThat101 also LL didn't live with her parents... she had gone to university and she lived independently from them... it's not like she was some 40 or 50 year old still living with their parents and having no life of her own.

A union rep or a work colleague. And only as a witness, not with the ability to interject.

It absolutely is not normal to bring a parent. And there are plenty of others on these threads who say it would never have been permitted in their trust.

In fact the bringing of a parent is something we would attribute to the Gen Z’s of today and most would roll their eyes at.

But so what?

Who knows what anyone would say in that situation? What are you trying to make from one comment from her mother who was obviously in shock and trying to defend her child?

I find that really odd too. A bit unhinged.

They did.

Perinatal death is death in childbirth. LL wasn't involved in delivery.

She was involved in neonatal care. So babies who survived childbirth but were still unwell afterwards.

There was no deaths on that ward for 10 months after she was removed.

Goes to show that people can easily promote information and statistics as wrong and in some cases by either misunderstanding medical terms themselves or relying on the general public not knowing them.

The jury and media were given a glossary of medical terms during the trial to help combat this.

But he was defending his daughter who he obviously thought was innocent by threatening to do something that was completely legal to do.

It is odd, but as someone else said: if your child was being arrested for murder, you might behave strangely. No-one knows how they would react in such a traumatic situation.

Insulin is one of the drugs most commonly associated with medication errors. (As well as being a drug of choice for some HCPs intent in doing harm). It's usually stored in a locked drug fridge on the ward but most diabetics bring their own into hospital with them, or have more of their own dispensed by pharmacy and kept in the personal locked bedside drugs cabinet which most hospitals have now. Most diabetics will self administer their insulin whilst they are in hospital unless they are too unwell to do so. They sensibly don't trust the nurses to get it right.

There is certainly a case for putting additional security around the ward stocks eg they could have two locks on the fridge requiring two separate keys held by different nurses so that a single nurse could not access it alone. Or these days it would be easy to have an electronic system, which obviously would give a record of every time it was accessed. Especially on neonatal and paediatric units where the patients are particularly vulnerable and often critically ill.

As for controlled drugs, despite all the many security systems in place, people do still manage to misuse them.
In my hospital earlier this year it was found that fentanyl was going missing from the emergency anaesthetic trolley. This is literally the only place where the drugs are kept not locked up - there is an emergency theatre with an emergency anaesthetic trolly, kept ready for instant use, hence not locked away. A junior anaesthetist was the identified culprit.
And sadly the father of one of DD's friends was an anaesthetist who knew exactly which drugs he needed to misappropriate for tragic reasons.

And entirely different circumstances and not in the U.K. but this is an interesting podcast where the nurse at Yale university hospital IVF clinic was substituting the fentanyl for saline and misusing the fentanyl. It meant patients having IVF egg collection did not have adequate analgesia. Lots of parallels around the hospital being uncooperative and unhelpful with enquiries and really, generally a shocking response from the hospital.

podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-retrievals/id1691599042?i=1000618732469

@jenbj completely agree

That's a good point and interesting.

I'm just waiting to see when Lucy Letby's mother will be blamed for her crimes because the mothers are blamed for everything.

Yes exactly it's always the mother (or parents) that must have done something partly I think because people can't stand the idea that people from average, normal backgrounds sometimes go on to do horrific things

Yes it is very weird. Tends to suggest they knew there must have been something to it. Yes I know no one knows how they’d react yada yada but it still seems odd

I have followed the case through the media and I have not found much of the evidence compelling, to a degree, the media have highlighted the most ridiculous parts of prosecution, the bewildering amount of circumstantial evidence, which I struggle to be convinced with. However having said that, the cases where babies were given insulin deliberately, that can only have a malicious intent. Someone gave the babies insulin, who? They should have started their case from this point and worked their way through all the others. There is something off about the whole thing. I don’t believe the investigation was conducted in a way that made any sense. Perhaps that began with the consultants and management and bias took affect and that followed through to the police. I don’t know. If I had more time on my hands I would look into the court transcripts and evaluate the evidence myself, sadly I don’t.
a part of me believes if they had started with the insulin cases first, all the other ‘evidence’ would have seemed very weak.

Not saying parents are to blame - but do you think they have a role to play?

Guess we are going into forensic psychology domain here.

@Gettingbysomehow yeah, there's a lot of 'omg it must be the parents who contributed in some way' or 'omg LL had fairy lights round her bed' or 'omg I know she was only 25 but she must have been jealous of anyone who was married/ having kids' on this thread!

Surely the main point to come out of this entire case is that someone can present as utterly unremarkable but can do appalling things. No one who knew her or worked with her suspected her because of how she looked/behaved/ what her bedroom looked like etc etc. Even the consultant who was the key person in becoming suspicious called her 'nice Lucy.' The entire point is that it was only the fact she was present at every death which led to the suspicions. Nothing else. She presented like a regular member of staff.

And the mum after her conviction said “this can’t be right”. Tends to be the kind of thing you say when you know something must be right but just don’t want to believe it

I find it odd - not only because it shows a blind love - but because it hints that her mum did think she was guilty of something.

Most cases the parents say "they're innocent" or "they wouldn't do that".

But "I did it" when she doesn't even work at the hospital is odd.

Obviously there's the other angle that she was just shell shocked at her daughter being arrested for multiple murder and attempted murders.

I guess it's another part of this we'll never really know or understand

this is very strange. How do you know anything about how the investigation was conducted? It was handled by experienced police officers and prosecutors. Do you not think they knew what they were doing a bit better than you?

@TooOldForThisNonsense literally this whole thread is full of people pulling apart every aspect of the case and people involved I think it's fine to have questions, there doesn't need to be blind deference to the officers involved

Really? Have you been working on this case?