Just wow at the student loan changes… eeek

[juliajo]

Students beginning university study this year upon completion of their studies will have to pay back 9% on earnings above £25,000 (aka, almost all full time wages now pay rises have been granted - national living wage is not far off that even if you decide to work in a supermarket after going to uni). It will now need to be paid over 40 years too so most of your working life, right through the expensive mortgage years and childcare years etc

I think this is catastrophic tbh and removes some of the incentive in education. I really hope schools spend time making sure cohorts fully understand the financial implications of university study, and think really carefully about what subject they choose. It’s a huge decision to make at 16/17 (when applying)

The actual repayment is less of an issue then the deterrence debt has on young people from lower income families.

I occasionally tutor the 14-18 age group so this often comes up and I am horrified by the class/income and often race divide between those going onto uni and those doing apprenticeships, not because they want to or believe it's better but solely to avoid the debt.

@Theworried2 I agree. Poor students are unfairly penalized. It should be possible to help more to get a degree.

The problem with student loans is not that you end up paying 30 quid if you get a 30k job. Most people would end on more than 30k if they left school at 16, did an apprenticeship or learned a trade. Even a good waiter gets that with tips, or a cleaner at 15 pounds/hour. There is no point paying 30k tuition fees for the privilege of just having a normal job. The loan will hurt if you end up getting a graduate job and you are a higher tax payer - you then have to pay back 12.5%!! 12.5% extra tax. So a lawyer, banker, engineer, doctor or senior software developer will end up on 57.5%!! tax and is going to pay back 100s of thousands. I can't get my head around how unfair it is. Of course university courses should lead to graduate jobs, but the moment you do get a professional career, the loan interest and repayment conditions will ensure that despite a professional career, you won't be able to buy a house or ever feel affluent.

I understood a full time degree to require 35-40 personal study hours a week, outside of contact time? This is what my lecturers told me. I don't think you have factored that in to your sums.

Depends on the degree. Some degree subjects don't really require a lot of research etc. My son did a Maths degree and basically ignored the "reading list" they gave him. (As did everyone he knows on the course, and the same was said by students in Uni open day subject talks at different Unis!).

He just worked through the materials provided, i.e. printed off the lecture notes, lecture slides, sample questions, past papers, etc all from the Uni portal, and just worked through them, learned them, etc., as he went along. His best guess at the time he spent outside formal "contact" hours was maybe 2-4 hours per week per module, and he'd do 2 or 3 modules at a time, so anywhere between 4 and 12 hours per week, which he'd do in the evenings or spare time in the Uni library between lectures. I don't think he ever did any studying at the weekends until exam season.

The thing is that he was very disciplined, so didn't waste time fooling himself he was studying when in fact he was on social media or half watching TV or you tube - he'd turn off devices and "lock himself" either in his bedroom or a study pod at Uni, and do the work. So an "evening" spent studying was genuinely a full 2-3 hours of work, and not 30 minutes of work between a couple of hours of distractions!!

Obviously he spent a lot more time in exam season going over it all again, but even then it was probably 5 hours per day on average, so he may have hit the 35-40 hours in the 6-8 weeks between Easter and end of Exams, but then there was no contact time as formal "teaching" stopped at the Easter break.

He just got a First, so not bothering with research and the reading lists didn't do him any harm!

@NellyBarney so do higher earners pay 12.5% over the threshold? I didn't know that.

@crazyaboutcats actually the lower income students are probably making the better choice by doing an apprentice and not going to uni.

I'm constantly wondering whether DS should go to uni. But the apprenticeships I've seen don't look that good. Hard to find them as well. Doesn't seem to be one overall place to search for them.

Healthcare is often if not mostly affected by our choices. Further, graduates are beneficial to society as a whole as well as paying more tax. Why should they pay for the whole cost of public services they use? Many pensioners don’t contribute adequately for their state pensions yet it’s just the young who have to pay their way (and for the elderly peoples pensions).

Sorry, it's actually 15%, I just checked. It's on the basis that most professional careers require a postgraduate qualification (law, banking, teaching, university lecturer, engineer, architect etc). So students need a loan for their 4th or even 5th year. They'll pay 9% on the debt incurred as an undergraduate, and then 6% on top on the debt incurred to qualify as a lawyer, teacher, engineer etc during their Master/PGCE etc. While they study for their professional qualification, the interest on their undergrad debt keeps accumulating, so a future lawyer or engineer will easily start their career with 70/80k debt and pay back 1k/month. This will make renting or ever buying in London, where most professional jobs are, almost impossible for those with student debt. Especially women might find it a long term burden if they take time out for children, as interest will keep accumulating (currently at 7.1% ) during that time. So a 40k student debt would go up to about 50k after 3 years out of work, that's an extra cost of 10k for having children, on top of income loss and pension reductions.

Especially women might find it a long term burden if they take time out for children, as interest will keep accumulating (currently at 7.1% ) during that time. So a 40k student debt would go up to about 50k after 3 years out of work, that's an extra cost of 10k for having children, on top of income loss and pension reductions.
Really? That's actually pretty shocking.

When my Euromillions lucky dip wins tonight, I shall be paying off the student loans and buying a flat convenient for work. Good luck everyone!

Schools don't seem to teach anythong about income tax, NIC, pensions so why would they bother with student loans. 40 year working payroll and I never cease to be amazed at the stupid questions I got asked about deductions on payslips.

YADNBU, the whole funding of higher education needs to be looked at again given that it is almost essential for individuals to get a job, and on the social level that it is required by society for basic healthcare.
Just when did it become acceptable to say that needed education was a privilege, not a right, as Kinnock warned all those years ago? It's not even acceptable, it is assumed as something that cannot be questioned. Yet an essential for survival within a society should not come with these costs.

NI is worse because the maximum loans are significantly lower than in England, so if your child doesn't want to go to one of two local unis and live at home, there's massive gap between what they can borrow and what it would cost to go to England or Wales.

Exactly this.

I imagine the pp 15 yo has heard someone say this and believed she'll be saddled with debt without actually understanding the situation, she really won't be saddled with debt, it's a small amount to pay back for receiving a very expensive education. I don't think uni should be free to all. The loan system works well IMO. I do think people should only do degrees if it is the required pathway for their job though.

I do think people should only do degrees if it is the required pathway for their job though.

But not everyone has a clear career idea at 18 .... and that's fine! University can provide support in developing career plans while getting a qualification.

If you really have no clear career idea and are academically capable of attending university it is still a good choice.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with that. Fair enough doing a very academic degree such as maths or maybe business which could lead to many jobs but I am not keen on the more random 'fun' degrees. Both my DCs are going down more arty careers so I am not biased towards the academic stuff at all, I just don't agree with going to uni for the 'experience'.

There is plenty of time to get a relevant degree once people decide IMO.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with that. Fair enough doing a very academic degree such as maths or maybe business which could lead to many jobs but I am not keen on the more random 'fun' degrees. Both my DCs are going down more arty careers so I am not biased towards the academic stuff at all, I just don't agree with going to uni for the 'experience'.

What is a 'fun' degree? Around 80% of graduate jobs don't specify a degree subject. They want people with the skills and experience developed during HE study.

As for just going for the experience.....that 'experience' can be placements, encounters with employers, careers and employability workshops, 1:1 careers support....why would that be a bad thing?!

There is plenty of time to get a relevant degree once people decide IMO.

And what do they do while they are waiting to decide?

Same as everyone else, they work. We need to stop treating young adults like babies, they have to take responsibility at some point. Most DC have some idea of what they are good at and whether they want to work as a builder, or in an office or in something high flying once they have completed A levels.

There are many paths to getting jobs of a high level, quite often work experience and gaining professional qualifications is much better and also preferred by an employer. I am not talking about those sorts of experiences, you hear so many times of kids wanting to go for the uni experience as in getting pissed, sleeping around and living alone. If they are going for the experience you describe then they are gaining experience in things relevant to a job so that is different. They still need to choose something relevant, getting a degree in art when you aren't intending on doing that as a career is pointless. That is what I am saying.

It's not a given right to go to Uni, in work places it is not the be all and end all either. I think kids need to think about all the options available rather than being pushed just to go regardless.

I don't have to be agreed with, it's just my opinion. Degrees aren't as meaningful as they used to be IMO.

Same as everyone else, they work. We need to stop treating young adults like babies, they have to take responsibility at some point. Most DC have some idea of what they are good at and whether they want to work as a builder, or in an office or in something high flying once they have completed A levels.

Not knowing what career you want at 18 doesn't make you a baby. Yes, you may have an idea as to whether you want to work in a trade or not but beyond that it's very common for young people not to have a clear idea and actually indecision doesn't make you a failure.

There are many paths to getting jobs of a high level, quite often work experience and gaining professional qualifications is much better and also preferred by an employer.

Hmmm as someone who works in the area of careers and graduate employability I think this is a very broad statement. It really does depend on the sector and there are many who want both....degree educated with experience hence the rise in placements, internships etc.

I am not talking about those sorts of experiences, you hear so many times of kids wanting to go for the uni experience as in getting pissed, sleeping around and living alone. If they are going for the experience you describe then they are gaining experience in things relevant to a job so that is different.

Why can't they do both? That's what most students do.

They still need to choose something relevant, getting a degree in art when you aren't intending on doing that as a career is pointless. That is what I am saying.

It's really not pointless.

It's not a given right to go to Uni, in work places it is not the be all and end all either. I think kids need to think about all the options available rather than being pushed just to go regardless.

I 100% agree.