Is there sympathy for consultants striking?

[LadyTemperance]

Just as the thread title says, do you feel sympathy for the consultant doctors pay demands. I understand their pay has not gone up for many years meaning they have had a cut in real terms. That being said a quick google tells me they start on 88k and have regular pay rises not based on performance.
They are hardly on the bread line are they?

Of course move to Republic of Ireland.
It’s the obvious choice, given you are from NI and have already have worked/ lived in dublin

the consultant salary is €275 k not €210k
The Uk starting salary is £88k . You only get to 119k after 20 years as a consultant ( so probably in your late 50s at the earliest)

It’s a no brainier to go to Ireland.

Don't most consultants also work privately, or at least have that option?

I see a consultant privately once a year for a check up, he charges £200 for an appointment which usually lasts less than 15 minutes.

So no I don't have loads of sympathy

This is the crux of the matter. when consultants have been devalued by 40% in terms of nhs payment, why wouldn’t they take their skills to private work entirely or to other countries where they are paid multiple times the nhs pay.

So does the UK want NHS consultants? It would seem not, if this issue is not addressed by pay resolution.

Incidentally I don't see the private consultant because I can't get that service on the NHS ..I have to actively opt out of the NHS service in writing but due to a traumatic experience when I first got diagnosed with this condition on tud NHS I'm only willing to let my private consultant deal with me now. Although if I ever needed further treatment I'd have to go back to the NHS as I couldn't afford it

So I get your point

Either way this thread reflects very very patchy support - and mainly from those that work in a healthcare setting ( perhaps still influenced by the obvious hierarchy or hope for a rise too)
In the public domain support it is simply not there. You carry on protesting for even more pay if you wish, but know it looks grabby and greedy to the rest of us. COL and inflation should drop soon, so you will see a natural pay rise anyway.

In the meantime, waiting lists soar and outcomes plummet. That is already happening. It's not speculative, hyperbole or propaganda.

It's the simple truth.

And this strike will make things even worse. The covid backlog was enormous and this really isn’t helping. Slow clap 👏🏻 for the greedy fat cat consultants

Seriously they should hang their heads in shame.

The backlog was 4.48 million before covid.

And then were woefully understaffed and under prepared (beds, ventilators, PPE) with a Government obsessed with a no deal when Covid struck.

Neither of which is a reason to restrict pay of course. But you know that.

Exactly!

Austerity stripped the state (not just the NHS) of excess capacity which we needed, to deal with disasters like coved.

And yes, we did previously have plans and supplies ready for disaster. Austerity destroyed them.

We did predict covid. We did try to prepare. The government was not interested.

Link please

Link to what?

You can’t randomly post waiting list numbers pre covid without backing it up. It sounds like a ridiculous exaggeration, so waiting for the evidence please.

Happy to - 4.6 (Kings Fund) or 4.43 (BMA) not 4.8 that was my mistake.

The total waiting list for elective care was steadily increasing before Covid, from 2.5 million in April 2012 to 4.6 million in February 2020

www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/how-much-is-covid-19-to-blame-for-growing-nhs-waiting-times

The NHS was struggling before the pandemic…
Between February 2012 and February 2020, the elective care waiting list grew by nearly 2.2 million. Comparing to other countriess_, it is easy to find potential reasons.:
• Funding: between 2013 and 2019, UK per capita spending on healthcare grew by 2 per cent per annum, compared to 3 per cent in the EU2.
• Staffing: in 2020, the UK had 3 doctors per 1,000 people, compared to 4 in the EU1 .
• Capacity: the UK had 2.4 hospital beds per 1,000 people in 2020, compared to 5.0 in the EU, and an above average occupancy rate (90 per cent in 2019, compared to 73 per cent in the EU).
1

www.kingsfund.org.uk/blog/2023/02/what-caused-uks-elective-care-backlog-how-can-we-tackle-it

High waits for treatment are not new. Prior to the pandemic in February 2020 there were already 4.43 million people on a waiting list for care.

www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/nhs-delivery-and-workforce/pressures/nhs-backlog-data-analysis

Do feel free to acknowledge that the backlog was over 4 million before Covid.

So your point is purely political.

We need wholesale reform of the NHS from top to bottom. Billions and billings are poured into it every year and nothing is ever enough.

Even Wes Streeting confirmed yesterday consultants would not be getting their pay demands from Labour - nor would they be able to increase the budgets, so what is the fucking point of this useless charade?

You are just hurting and potentially killing the patients - that’s all you are going to achieve with this pointless political exercise and the patients will suffer and no one else.

"So your point is purely political. "

No my point is practical.
We don't have enough doctors. We haven't trained enough for our needs and are not retaining the ones we have. We need the ones we have.
They can get better terms and pay elsewhere.

You can stick you mr head in the sand all you want. But the problem remains.

The expansion of med places is obviously needed and I agree JD should have improved hours and conditions but why the hell should CONSULTANTS on the top rate of pay be striking for more money??

It’s obscene.

Do you think it will magically solve all of our issues if we pay consultants more? Of course it won’t! I think we probably pay consultants TOO much, they all seem to retire at 55!!! The only place that benefits is the golf course.

It’s a total disgrace to the integrity of the profession.

Nobody has suggested it will magically fix the NHS. It will almost certainly mean we attract and retain experienced staff which seems to be a good thing.

Really? It won’t just fast track your retirement plans to the South of France…

You earn more than enough.
What you are doing is despicable actually.

No, most don’t work in the private sector. Even in specialities like surgery and anaesthesia which lend themselves to private work, the majority work solely in the NHS. The private sector is very small in the UK.

In specialties like A&E, intensive care, nephrology, geriatric medicine, transplant surgery, there is practically no private work. Not zero, there are people working full time at the Cleveland Clinic and Portland Hospital, but it’s very few.

There is one person in my department of 25 consultants who does a single fortnightly private clinic, which funds her research. London teaching hospital, several eminent professors.

GC I am not a medic (to my mothers eternal frustration) just a parent to a child that is heavily reliant on NHS interventions. So I suppose you could argue that I am invested in getting good public services and protecting the ones we have.

And before you ride off on that high horse I'll suggest you didn't go to work in Dubai for a pay cut. I'll bet you took advantage of a few tax breaks whilst you there too.

I am never going to agree with what you are doing. Most of you earn rock star salaries, and in later years become incredibly wealthy.

I have a very low opinion of those that claim to ‘care’ about patients, and accept all the benefits, job security, privilege, pensions and wealth of the profession, only to let down millions of patients - some no doubt that will not survive the delay, is utterly unconscionable on your current salaries.

Bloody cut back your fast cars, luxury holidays like everyone else has had to do in this country and elsewhere in Europe. You are not special with a free pass to weaponise life saving care to people for the sake of greed.

I am out. Your logic and excuses fail dismally.

The NHS will certainly NOT be fixed with 35% ransom demands!!!! Seriously are you for real.

You have no real answer.

You're quite prepared for the NHS to collapse, as long as you're proved "right" on some twisted, "moral" point about "greed".

Sums up the attitude of every Tory voter

Not a doctor but I have to 😂 at "rock star salaries". I'm picturing a star from the 70s with perhaps one good hit that gets played a few times around Christmas.

I am not a Tory voter thanks! So this IS politically driven - why would you even mention it otherwise? I wouldn’t dream of second guessing your party of choice, how is it relevant??

But it is obvious the NHS is going to collapse or indeed already collapsing in some areas, the strikes are simply fast tracking its demise.

Even those with average maths ability can see the stats and projections for the NHS and it’s totally inconceivable and impossible to continue as we are, even if we doubled the budget, as you must surely well know.

You are doing the equivalent of looting from the dying embers of a wonderful and indeed beautiful vision of free healthcare for all cradle to grave. I don’t know how you can seriously expect anyone to believe otherwise.

The NHS became way too big, too unwieldy, too ambitious for a country of 70 million of whom nearly half are aging rapidly. It’s not feasible to continue the lie that if we keep pumping in resources it will make any difference, it wont. The quicker we can accept what both Labour and the conservatives are say oh the better. The game is up.