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Paris Mayo convicted of murder (TW)

359 replies

Whitakers · 27/06/2023 06:55

NB v distressing content

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/23/teenager-guilty-baby-herefordshire-hide-pregnancy-paris-mayo

The jury was asked to consider an alternative verdict of infanticide but found her guilty of murder. I’m surprised by this- surprised she wasn’t just charged with infanticide in the first place, to be honest. It’s a terrible case.

Teenager guilty of murdering baby in Herefordshire to hide pregnancy | UK news | The Guardian

Paris Mayo, now 19, violently assaulted newborn in 2019 to stop family finding out about the birth

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/23/teenager-guilty-baby-herefordshire-hide-pregnancy-paris-mayo

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
AP5Diva · 27/06/2023 14:28

On the Weston super mare case the 34yr old threw her baby off a balcony and left the body in the garden. It’s note worthy that you do not need any psychiatric reports for the CPS to accept the guilty plea for the lesser charge of infanticide, even when the accused has been charged with murder.

A woman has admitted killing her baby who she threw off a balcony.
Sarah Jane Barron, 34, was charged with murder in October 2022, which she denied - but she admitted the lesser charge of infanticide at Bristol Crown Court on Tuesday.
The boy, believed to be just hours old when he died, was found in a Weston-super-Mare garden on 12 December 2020.
Barron's sentence was adjourned to 14 July so psychiatric reports could be prepared.
The court was told Barron "caused the death of your child under 12 months by wilful act by throwing them over a balcony at the time you had not fully recovered from the effects of giving birth".
Barron was granted bail until her sentencing.”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-65532107

Scene of the house in Weston

Woman admits killing baby thrown from balcony in Weston-super-Mare

Sarah Jane Barron will be sentenced on 14 July after pleading guilty to infanticide.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-65532107

Quveas · 27/06/2023 14:48

Whitakers · 27/06/2023 07:51

The sentence isn’t surprising for a murder conviction- it’s mandatory. For me it’s the decision to prosecute her for murder rather than infanticide. If infanticide isn’t the appropriate offence for a teenager who secretly gives birth in her bedroom, I struggle to see when it would be appropriate.

There have already been at least two very long threads on this matter. But apart from the fact that nobody here reading the very much less than detailed information available in the press can gainsay the outcome decided by a jury who sat and listened to all the evidence AND did consider the alternative of infanticide but decided that the evidence supported murder....

She did not "secretly give birth in her bedroom" and that's the end of it. Medical experts have given sworn testimony that the child was deliberately injured and lived in excruciating pain for a number of hours before being stifled and died unable to breath. If she'd given birth in hospital, gone home and done the same thing, it would be murder. That makes it still murder. How does ones age or the method of birth erradicate child abuse - something that gazillions of threads on this site have roundly condemned with people advocating violence against and even death for the perpetrators?

Yes, there is much tragic about this case. There are often many things tragic about many cases. But having tragic circumstances does not provide an excuse for killing a baby, and I am gobsmacked at the hypocrisy of so many that think that age or circumstances are an excuse. It smacks of "I grew up poor and that's why I am a thief". There are no adequate excuses for child abuse and murder. None. And unless a person is very severely mentally ill, everyone, including a 15 year old, knows that.

AllOfThemWitches · 27/06/2023 14:54

Oh but don't forget the psychosis

Nussbaum · 27/06/2023 15:12

She deserves every day of that sentence.

AP5Diva · 27/06/2023 15:20

AgathaSpencerGregson · 27/06/2023 14:21

For sane readers; the book is indeed available from Amazon, but was originally written by glanville Williams, an eminent legal academic, and is currently edited by Tony smith, formerly professor of criminal and public laws at Cambridge.
you are better off with that than the witterings if this poster, believe me 😂

It pretty much says the same things I’ve been saying.

  • Precedents are either binding or persuasive depending on hierarchy.
  • Decisions by lower courts, even foreign courts do set precedents of a persuasive authority
  • That many decisions of the same outcome done at the first instance, or in lower courts, can discourage lawyers from even advising client to pursue an appeal because…
  • Appeal courts themselves look at lower court decisions even though they are not binding but because they do have persuasive authority.

“English Courts are obliged to follow previous decisions within more or less
well-defined limits. This is called the doctrine of precedent. The part of a case
that is said to possess authority is the ratio decidendi, that is to say, the rule of law upon which the decision is founded. Finding the ratio decidendi of a case is an important part of the training of a lawyer. It is not a mechanical process but it is an art that one gradually acquires through practice and study.”p95

“What the doctrine of precedent declares is that cases must be decided the same way when their material facts are the same. Obviously it does not require that all the facts should be the same. We know that in the flux of life all the facts of a case will never recur; but the legally material facts may recur and it is with these that the doctrine is concerned.”p104

“This matter of distinguishing has been stressed because it plays a most important part in legal argument. Suppose that you are conducting a case in court, and that the other side cites a case against you. You then have only two alternatives (that is, if you are not prepared to throw your hand in altogether). One is to submit that the case cited is wrongly decided, and so should not be followed. This is possible only if the case is not binding on the court. The other is to “distinguish” it, by suggesting that it contains or lacks some vital fact that is absent or present in your client’s case. Sometimes you may have the sympathy of the judge in your effort to distinguish it, even though the distinction you suggest involves tamper ing with the expressed ratio decidendi of the precedent case and even though you have no authority for the suggested distinction.”

”More important than the name of the case is the rank of the court in which it was decided. To mention the court that decided a case is a mark of awareness of the doctrine of precedent, with its hierarchy of authority. The rule is that every court binds lower courts and that some courts bind.” p110

“Decisions of courts inferior to the High Court do not bind anybody, not even themselves. In legal theory decisions of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council do not bind English courts, nor even the Judicial Committee itself. But they have great “persuasive” authority.” p119

”Rules of precedent instruct judges that they are or are not bound to decide the case before them in a particular way. The rules do not tell the judge what principles to act upon when the situation is unconstrained by authority, for example when faced by a precedent in a lower court which is not binding. The judge then has to choose between notions of justice, convenience, public policy, morality, analogy, and so on, perhaps taking into account the opinions of other judges (in American, Canadian, Australian and Scottish cases, for instance) or of writers. The various considerations may not point in the same direction, but conflict with each other.”p121

”Lawyers are rather prone to assume that what has been decided cannot be upset. It often happens that a plainly wrong decision is given at first instance or even by the Court of Appeal, which is followed unquestioningly for many years because counsel do not advise their clients to take the point further on appeal. When, eventually, some counsel is found who has the courage and acumen to take the point, the precedent is reversed.”p123

-Professor Glanville Williams in Learning The Law, fifteenth edition.
🍳 + 🤪= you.

Pythacalling702 · 27/06/2023 15:21

Quveas · 27/06/2023 14:48

There have already been at least two very long threads on this matter. But apart from the fact that nobody here reading the very much less than detailed information available in the press can gainsay the outcome decided by a jury who sat and listened to all the evidence AND did consider the alternative of infanticide but decided that the evidence supported murder....

She did not "secretly give birth in her bedroom" and that's the end of it. Medical experts have given sworn testimony that the child was deliberately injured and lived in excruciating pain for a number of hours before being stifled and died unable to breath. If she'd given birth in hospital, gone home and done the same thing, it would be murder. That makes it still murder. How does ones age or the method of birth erradicate child abuse - something that gazillions of threads on this site have roundly condemned with people advocating violence against and even death for the perpetrators?

Yes, there is much tragic about this case. There are often many things tragic about many cases. But having tragic circumstances does not provide an excuse for killing a baby, and I am gobsmacked at the hypocrisy of so many that think that age or circumstances are an excuse. It smacks of "I grew up poor and that's why I am a thief". There are no adequate excuses for child abuse and murder. None. And unless a person is very severely mentally ill, everyone, including a 15 year old, knows that.

Murder is murder but of course the age and maturity of the perpetrator makes a difference. The brain chemistry of a teen is different to that of an adult for a start.

I am still not clear on whether she was tried as an adult or a minor? And why did it take so long to bring the case to court?

And sorry but circumstances and context do make a huge difference. I remember watching a documentary about a women’s prison in a very deprived area of Scotland where generation after generation of the inmates, owing to few employment opportunities in the area, got entangled in drugs and then basically went back and forth to prison, almost dependent on the support it provided. You couldn’t really argue that the same number of middle class girls from a prosperous village in leafy Hampshire would likely be drawn in to the same cycle because simple geography dictates that they wouldn’t!

That doesn’t make what she did right, far from it, but to argue that a frightened teen should not be treated with more leniency than a thirty year old woman with more autonomy and more experience of life doesn’t seem just to me.

Brefugee · 27/06/2023 15:24

she would have got less if she were an elderly man who killed his wife for "backchat" Much much less.

Yet again women being jailed for lengthly terms when men get away with rape and murder. Or rape and murder. And are over the age where their brains are fully developed.

I simply don't understand why infanticide wasn't the charge. But i don't expect women and girls to be treated fairly by the "justice system" these days.

Brefugee · 27/06/2023 15:25

x2boys · 27/06/2023 08:20

If you want to start a,thread about the man who.murdered his wife start one
This thread us about a girl.who.murdered her baby stop.with the whataboutry.

we constantly have threads about these injustices too, by the way

AgathaSpencerGregson · 27/06/2023 15:26

AP5Diva · 27/06/2023 15:20

It pretty much says the same things I’ve been saying.

  • Precedents are either binding or persuasive depending on hierarchy.
  • Decisions by lower courts, even foreign courts do set precedents of a persuasive authority
  • That many decisions of the same outcome done at the first instance, or in lower courts, can discourage lawyers from even advising client to pursue an appeal because…
  • Appeal courts themselves look at lower court decisions even though they are not binding but because they do have persuasive authority.

“English Courts are obliged to follow previous decisions within more or less
well-defined limits. This is called the doctrine of precedent. The part of a case
that is said to possess authority is the ratio decidendi, that is to say, the rule of law upon which the decision is founded. Finding the ratio decidendi of a case is an important part of the training of a lawyer. It is not a mechanical process but it is an art that one gradually acquires through practice and study.”p95

“What the doctrine of precedent declares is that cases must be decided the same way when their material facts are the same. Obviously it does not require that all the facts should be the same. We know that in the flux of life all the facts of a case will never recur; but the legally material facts may recur and it is with these that the doctrine is concerned.”p104

“This matter of distinguishing has been stressed because it plays a most important part in legal argument. Suppose that you are conducting a case in court, and that the other side cites a case against you. You then have only two alternatives (that is, if you are not prepared to throw your hand in altogether). One is to submit that the case cited is wrongly decided, and so should not be followed. This is possible only if the case is not binding on the court. The other is to “distinguish” it, by suggesting that it contains or lacks some vital fact that is absent or present in your client’s case. Sometimes you may have the sympathy of the judge in your effort to distinguish it, even though the distinction you suggest involves tamper ing with the expressed ratio decidendi of the precedent case and even though you have no authority for the suggested distinction.”

”More important than the name of the case is the rank of the court in which it was decided. To mention the court that decided a case is a mark of awareness of the doctrine of precedent, with its hierarchy of authority. The rule is that every court binds lower courts and that some courts bind.” p110

“Decisions of courts inferior to the High Court do not bind anybody, not even themselves. In legal theory decisions of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council do not bind English courts, nor even the Judicial Committee itself. But they have great “persuasive” authority.” p119

”Rules of precedent instruct judges that they are or are not bound to decide the case before them in a particular way. The rules do not tell the judge what principles to act upon when the situation is unconstrained by authority, for example when faced by a precedent in a lower court which is not binding. The judge then has to choose between notions of justice, convenience, public policy, morality, analogy, and so on, perhaps taking into account the opinions of other judges (in American, Canadian, Australian and Scottish cases, for instance) or of writers. The various considerations may not point in the same direction, but conflict with each other.”p121

”Lawyers are rather prone to assume that what has been decided cannot be upset. It often happens that a plainly wrong decision is given at first instance or even by the Court of Appeal, which is followed unquestioningly for many years because counsel do not advise their clients to take the point further on appeal. When, eventually, some counsel is found who has the courage and acumen to take the point, the precedent is reversed.”p123

-Professor Glanville Williams in Learning The Law, fifteenth edition.
🍳 + 🤪= you.

I think you probably need to read a bit more, love. But while you’re here, do tell us where we go to find the ratio decidendi in a jury verdict? I mean, all the jury foreman ever says is “guilty or not guilty”. But perhaps you know better?

AP5Diva · 27/06/2023 15:28

Medical experts have given sworn testimony that the child was deliberately injured and lived in excruciating pain for a number of hours before being stifled and died unable to breath.

The judge’s sentence statements say different:

“Third, I have to consider the mental or physical suffering inflicted on the victim before death. Stanley was subjected to two serious assaults, separated by at least an hour, leading to his death.

There was an assault to his head causing extensive bone fractures, a subdural haemorrhage and a tearing injury to the periosteum, the fibrous covering of the skull. That is a well-innervated structure, so damage to it is capable of causing pain. However, a blow to the head can also cause a loss of consciousness.

I do not have evidence to support a conclusion that Stanley was conscious between the injury to his skull and his death. (my bold)

Somewhere between 45 and 90 minutes later, as I find it to be, you suffocated your son by pushing the cotton wool balls down his throat and pinching his nose closed, leaving the marks seen at post-mortem.

Although it was plainly your intention to kill, there is no proper basis on which I can conclude that he was conscious at the time. I cannot find therefore that he suffered any prolonged pain as a result of your attacks on him.”
https://www.itv.com/news/central/2023-06-26/judges-remarks-as-teenage-mum-jailed-for-killing-newborn

AgathaSpencerGregson · 27/06/2023 15:29

I’m waiting to hear where we find the ratio in a jury verdict on the facts? Come on. I’m on the edge of my seat here.

Bbq1 · 27/06/2023 15:32

She's got what she deserved. What she did was beyond panicking. It was calculated and evil. Who could do that to a newborn baby let alone your own. It's sickening.

x2boys · 27/06/2023 15:33

Brefugee · 27/06/2023 15:24

she would have got less if she were an elderly man who killed his wife for "backchat" Much much less.

Yet again women being jailed for lengthly terms when men get away with rape and murder. Or rape and murder. And are over the age where their brains are fully developed.

I simply don't understand why infanticide wasn't the charge. But i don't expect women and girls to be treated fairly by the "justice system" these days.

She brutally murdered a baby ,what about the baby ?

x2boys · 27/06/2023 15:39

So far the excuses have been
She was psychotic ( no.evidence )
She was statutory raped ( not a thing in the uk)
Her Brain hasn't developed fully( something mums net is obsessed with)
What about the man who murdered his elderly wife ( what about him ?,)
Anymore excuses ,?im surprised no one has yet somehow managed to blame it on a man ..

AllOfThemWitches · 27/06/2023 15:41

x2boys · 27/06/2023 15:39

So far the excuses have been
She was psychotic ( no.evidence )
She was statutory raped ( not a thing in the uk)
Her Brain hasn't developed fully( something mums net is obsessed with)
What about the man who murdered his elderly wife ( what about him ?,)
Anymore excuses ,?im surprised no one has yet somehow managed to blame it on a man ..

They have, in another thread. The OP stated that the father should have 'intervened.'

AP5Diva · 27/06/2023 15:46

Brefugee · 27/06/2023 15:24

she would have got less if she were an elderly man who killed his wife for "backchat" Much much less.

Yet again women being jailed for lengthly terms when men get away with rape and murder. Or rape and murder. And are over the age where their brains are fully developed.

I simply don't understand why infanticide wasn't the charge. But i don't expect women and girls to be treated fairly by the "justice system" these days.

Same here and I posted about the murder of a 67yr old woman for saying “get over it” to her husband who was whinging about lockdown being hard. He admitted he choked the living daylights out of her. Conviction was manslaughter and a sentence of 5yrs.

AP5Diva · 27/06/2023 15:50

AgathaSpencerGregson · 27/06/2023 15:29

I’m waiting to hear where we find the ratio in a jury verdict on the facts? Come on. I’m on the edge of my seat here.

You seem to not know very much despite claiming to be a lawyer with 25yrs experience. Perhaps you should take a stab at answering the question yourself?

x2boys · 27/06/2023 15:51

AllOfThemWitches · 27/06/2023 15:41

They have, in another thread. The OP stated that the father should have 'intervened.'

Even though the father may not have known about the pregnancy
Because the defence was Paris didn't know
So.if she didn't b know how could the father?

AP5Diva · 27/06/2023 15:58

x2boys · 27/06/2023 15:51

Even though the father may not have known about the pregnancy
Because the defence was Paris didn't know
So.if she didn't b know how could the father?

The father couldn’t have known. It’s in her medical records she had pregnancy denial (a type of psychotic delusion).

Zarataralara · 27/06/2023 16:02

She had options. She could have left the baby outside a neighbour’s house as I wouldn’t expect her to be able to walk far.
She could have left him in a phone box, a shop doorway.
She could have called on SS for help before the birth.
or her GP
Or her school.
Thousands of girls and women have given birth alone, some not knowing they were pregnant, it’s extremely rare to kill the baby.
I was just over a year older than Paris when I had my first. It was traumatic, I bled profusely, the nurses were pretty shitty about me being a teen mum. But no one was taking or harming my baby. I was guarding that baby with my life from minute one.
I really think she must have other problems, I can’t speculate what as I’m no expert but I hope she gets help.
RIP little Stanley, you deserved much better.

x2boys · 27/06/2023 16:02

AP5Diva · 27/06/2023 15:58

The father couldn’t have known. It’s in her medical records she had pregnancy denial (a type of psychotic delusion).

No.denial is not the same a,a delusion and don't try and send me any Wikipedia link, s I used to.be a mental.health nurse I have a good understanding of what psychosis and delusions are unlike you
Just because you insist she wss delusional.doesn't mean she was.

AgathaSpencerGregson · 27/06/2023 16:02

AP5Diva · 27/06/2023 15:50

You seem to not know very much despite claiming to be a lawyer with 25yrs experience. Perhaps you should take a stab at answering the question yourself?

But we’ve already established you know so much more than me, so go on, educate me. Where’s the ratio decidendi in “guilty”?

AgathaSpencerGregson · 27/06/2023 16:04

Could it be there isn’t one because juries only make findings of fact, not decisions on the law?
so say I (and every other lawyer in English legal history). But our legal scholar here knows better.

alittleadvicepls · 27/06/2023 16:07

A bit off topic here but how did no one in the house hear her giving birth?? And what about a crying infant? Either way, awful thing to do!

x2boys · 27/06/2023 16:09

alittleadvicepls · 27/06/2023 16:07

A bit off topic here but how did no one in the house hear her giving birth?? And what about a crying infant? Either way, awful thing to do!

Apparently her father was having kidney dialysis upstairs he died ten days after .