Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Paris Mayo convicted of murder (TW)

359 replies

Whitakers · 27/06/2023 06:55

NB v distressing content

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/23/teenager-guilty-baby-herefordshire-hide-pregnancy-paris-mayo

The jury was asked to consider an alternative verdict of infanticide but found her guilty of murder. I’m surprised by this- surprised she wasn’t just charged with infanticide in the first place, to be honest. It’s a terrible case.

Teenager guilty of murdering baby in Herefordshire to hide pregnancy | UK news | The Guardian

Paris Mayo, now 19, violently assaulted newborn in 2019 to stop family finding out about the birth

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/23/teenager-guilty-baby-herefordshire-hide-pregnancy-paris-mayo

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
AP5Diva · 27/06/2023 09:35

AgathaSpencerGregson · 27/06/2023 09:32

This is just babble. The jury did not, could not, adjudicate on any question of law. They could only decide guilt or innocence based on the facts in front of them. The next jury in the next case will do the same, as will all the juries after that.

They did though. The judge gave them the choice of a murder or infanticide conviction. That is a question of which criminal law to apply to the case. Someone’s not read even a few news articles on the case!

AP5Diva · 27/06/2023 09:36

AgathaSpencerGregson · 27/06/2023 09:34

Your sources don’t back up what you say. You can’t even understand the results of your googling. Give up.

Sorry this is over your head. I’ve tried to make my information as accessible as possible.

Pythacalling702 · 27/06/2023 09:37

My views on this case are formed solely from being the mother to teenage girls - I don’t pretend to understand the legal process - so I apologise in advance if some of my assumptions are wrong.

What she did was fundamentally wrong, beyond cruel, appalling, and truly abhorrent, but I don’t think you can judge the actions of a panicking and frightened fifteen year old, the same as one would say an adult of over 25 years. The brain isn’t fully formed until you are approximately 25 to 27 years old.

Can someone confirm whether was she treated legally as an adult in court? Or was she tried as a juvenile?

The fact that she opted to go through the extreme pain and fear of what was presumably a first labour alone rather than tell her parents shows she wasn’t being logical for a start. And why was she so afraid of telling her father? What was she scared of? Did they take that in to account? She was obviously a vulnerable teen.

And I thought there was a recognised psychological phenomenon whereby a pregnant woman, or girl
in this instance, denies the pregnancy to
themselves over and over until
in their mind it doesn’t exist. And then their mind is shocked by the very real confronting event of birth and they can’t reconcile the two.

I am sure there was a case like this back in the eighties when a deceased baby of a young British woman backpacker was found at an airport. I think that argument was employed in court then.

I can almost see how a scared, exhausted, 15 year old (14 years old throughout most of the pregnancy) who has denied pregnancy to themselves for months, rationalised the situation by saying “well if no one knows about it, it’s come out of me, it didn’t live long, it doesn’t matter” . I am not saying at all that what she did was right but that I can almost understand how she rationalised the denial of it all, especially if she thought of the pregnancy in her mind as something that had happened to her, that it was something unwanted that had invaded her body, rather than an active choice she was excited about.

I’ve done jury service twice and been impressed by the system each time so I take the pp’s point above about the judge and jury knowing details we don’t and respecting the system.

However, can anyone really know the inside of a teenage girl’s mind as to whether intention was there I mean? Are the thoughts and motivations of a teenage girl’s brain, especially a frightened one, always clear to herself?

Or was she judged so harshly (compared to the elderly man who murdered his wife during lockdown at least) on the basis that she could not still as a nineteen year old bring herself to admit guilt? If so I would still say that as a teenager you are by definition prone to covering up and defensiveness.

And is how “she appeared to others” even relevant? The very essence of being a teenage girl is appearing cool and impassive on the outside while masking extreme uncertainty and panic on the inside.

And there is what one might call a “misogynistic” bias here perhaps? I don’t know quite how to frame it but the fact that this extreme situation could never by definition happen to a teenage boy means surely that she is at a disadvantage from the start?

And why did it take so long to come to trial? Surely she would have been tried more sympathetically as a young teen than an older one?

AgathaSpencerGregson · 27/06/2023 09:37

AP5Diva · 27/06/2023 09:35

They did though. The judge gave them the choice of a murder or infanticide conviction. That is a question of which criminal law to apply to the case. Someone’s not read even a few news articles on the case!

The judge indeed directed them as to the alternative verdict of infanticide, which on the facts, they rejected. why do you think that binds future juries on different facts or establishes new law?
do you actually understand what law is?

x2boys · 27/06/2023 09:38

Vitaminbees · 27/06/2023 09:17

And if she, as a 15 year old, had done that to a baby she hadn’t literally just given birth to alone after concealing a pregnancy for 9 months and having conceived as a result of statutory rape she would quite rightly deserve every minute of her sentence. But this is slightly more nuanced.

There is no such thing as statuary rape in the.uk.
It would be rape if she were under 13
And rape if she didn't consent .

loislovesstewie · 27/06/2023 09:39

If we took a straw poll here about how bad women find labour, then there would be a whole range of experiences. These would be from ' oh it was like shelling peas' to ' it was the worst pain imaginable'. No one can experience another person's pain and that applies to everyone. She might just be the sort of woman who can give birth with very little pain. I'm one of those, I could have easily given birth by myself as there was no pain. If you have been in agony I'm not telling you that you didn't feel that pain. I think it's important to acknowledge that she might not have experienced pain. She was clearly capable of then ending her child's life, and then not asking for assistance. I assume that she intended just to carry on as normal.

AP5Diva · 27/06/2023 09:41

AgathaSpencerGregson · 27/06/2023 09:37

The judge indeed directed them as to the alternative verdict of infanticide, which on the facts, they rejected. why do you think that binds future juries on different facts or establishes new law?
do you actually understand what law is?

Ah, so while admitting you were 100% in the wrong to say it’s just “babble” and “The jury did not, could not, adjudicate on any question of law. They could only decide guilt or innocence based on the facts in front of them.”

When in fact they did decide more than guilt or innocence. They did adjudicate on a question of which criminal statute to apply..l

You still fit to stoop to a personal attack of “do you actually understand what law is?”

Yes, yes I do, and I think I’ve demonstrated that I understand law more than you do.

AgathaSpencerGregson · 27/06/2023 09:42

AP5Diva · 27/06/2023 09:36

Sorry this is over your head. I’ve tried to make my information as accessible as possible.

I’m giving up with this one. In the interests of dispelling disinformation, this remains an excellent introduction to how English law and the doctrine of precedent works, designed for a non-legal audience: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Glanville-Williams-Learning-ATH-Smith/dp/0414069080/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?adgrpid=53894560500&hvadid=606238189834&hvdev=m&hvlocphy=9180808&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=10904099006501787620&hvtargid=kwd-299373636190&hydadcr=19600_2281344&keywords=glanville+williams+learning+the+law&qid=1687855211&sr=8-1

AgathaSpencerGregson · 27/06/2023 09:44

AP5Diva · 27/06/2023 09:41

Ah, so while admitting you were 100% in the wrong to say it’s just “babble” and “The jury did not, could not, adjudicate on any question of law. They could only decide guilt or innocence based on the facts in front of them.”

When in fact they did decide more than guilt or innocence. They did adjudicate on a question of which criminal statute to apply..l

You still fit to stoop to a personal attack of “do you actually understand what law is?”

Yes, yes I do, and I think I’ve demonstrated that I understand law more than you do.

Given I’ve been a lawyer for 25 years, that would have given the PI insurers some sleepless nights, eh? 😂

truthhurts23 · 27/06/2023 09:44

She’s disgusting she needs to be locked up
she could have left the baby somewhere ,
she is a danger to the public if she can do that to a little baby

MichelleScarn · 27/06/2023 09:45

Bluebells1970 · 27/06/2023 09:14

She could have left that baby outside a fire station, or in a public place and called the Police - but instead chose to end its life.

There are no excuses for that. The verdict is the right one.

Absolutely and the callous and brutal way she killed him and the apologists for her is appalling.
She didn't abandon him in a bag somewhere or even 'just' suffocate him (and I feel sick writing that) she caused catastrophic injuries similar to a car crash, and when that wasn't enough she went and got cotton wool balls and choked him with them.
And people are still 'oh poor girl'?!

Mistymist · 27/06/2023 09:47

MichelleScarn · 27/06/2023 09:45

Absolutely and the callous and brutal way she killed him and the apologists for her is appalling.
She didn't abandon him in a bag somewhere or even 'just' suffocate him (and I feel sick writing that) she caused catastrophic injuries similar to a car crash, and when that wasn't enough she went and got cotton wool balls and choked him with them.
And people are still 'oh poor girl'?!

Exactly this.

loislovesstewie · 27/06/2023 09:53

Sorry to distress anyone further, but apparently the baby lived for at least an hour. So she had that long to call an ambulance after the birth but chose not to. Had she done so, then she would also have been protected, if she was concerned about the reaction of her family.

Pythacalling702 · 27/06/2023 10:13

Yes it’s hard to fathom or justify her actions that’s for sure but I think you have a very different and more logical perspective as an adult and would think about depositing the baby somewhere safe.

It doesn’t make it right but a teenager is much more impulsive in their actions. And if she daren’t even tell her parents early on about her situation, it’s clear she wasn’t a young teen who felt particularly supported or safe in her environment or that she would be understood. I think it’s clear she felt she had to deal with this entirely alone; hence the disturbing outcome.

TooOldForThisNonsense · 27/06/2023 10:22

AP5Diva · 27/06/2023 09:35

They did though. The judge gave them the choice of a murder or infanticide conviction. That is a question of which criminal law to apply to the case. Someone’s not read even a few news articles on the case!

Based. On. The. Evidence.

ie the facts before them.

@AP5Diva honestly you know nothing about either legal or psychiatric issues. You should really stop embarrassing yourself further.

Starseeking · 27/06/2023 11:46

Being convicted of murder and going to prison are the right result for this case. Stamping on a baby's head and stuffing its mouth with cotton wool can't be excused, even if she had just given birth at 15. The punishment fits the crime, and she'll still be young enough to live a full life when she comes out of prison, unlike the baby which was killed.

OrlandointheWilderness · 27/06/2023 12:21

It's not simply the fact that she killed him, it's the violence of her actions. It's not as simple as smothering him for example - easy enough to do - it's that she took violent action to end his life. She deserves her sentence.

AllOfThemWitches · 27/06/2023 12:26

OrlandointheWilderness · 27/06/2023 12:21

It's not simply the fact that she killed him, it's the violence of her actions. It's not as simple as smothering him for example - easy enough to do - it's that she took violent action to end his life. She deserves her sentence.

That and her attempt to conceal the murder by dumping the 'evidence' in the bin.

AP5Diva · 27/06/2023 12:43

AgathaSpencerGregson · 27/06/2023 09:44

Given I’ve been a lawyer for 25 years, that would have given the PI insurers some sleepless nights, eh? 😂

You say that, but I’m doubting it. No way would a lawyer make such a rookie error so as to not understand the basic function of how courts at all tiers create law by their rulings in a common law system, to not know the principle of stare decisis such that every case doesn’t stand totally alone but there is a principle that similar circumstances and facts should result in similar convictions and sentence, and to not know about persuasive precedents and how they work.

Nor would they post a link to an Amazon textbook as if that supports anything they are saying.

AP5Diva · 27/06/2023 12:49

TooOldForThisNonsense · 27/06/2023 10:22

Based. On. The. Evidence.

ie the facts before them.

@AP5Diva honestly you know nothing about either legal or psychiatric issues. You should really stop embarrassing yourself further.

I’ll try a dictionary. Maybe that will help.
https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/3-509-2489?contextData=(sc.Default)&transitionType=Default&firstPage=true

Stare Decisis
Latin term that means "to stand by things decided." The principle that a court should follow precedent established by previously decided cases with similar facts and issues to provide certainty and consistency in the administration of justice. Generally, there are two types of precedent:

  • Binding precedent. Precedent that a court must abide by in its adjudication of a case. For example, a lower court is bound by the decision of a higher court in the same jurisdiction, even if the lower court judge disagrees with the reasoning or outcome of that decision.
  • Persuasive precedent. Precedent that a court may, but is not required to, rely on in deciding a case. Examples of persuasive precedent include:
  • decisions from courts in neighboring jurisdictions; and
  • dicta in a decision by a higher court.

The psychiatric stuff, reference the earlier thread on this case. Lots of educational material posted there debunking several common misconceptions regarding psychosis in pregnancy.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4833778-teenager-guilty-of-murder?page=1

Stare Decisis | Practical Law

Stare Decisis | Practical Law

https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/3-509-2489?contextData=(sc.Default)&transitionType=Default&firstPage=true

FrippertyFloof · 27/06/2023 13:59

I do find it strange that infanticide was rejected due to her age, background, concealing the pregnancy etc. There was a baby found in Aldershot in a similar situation and the mother was given community service.

AP5Diva · 27/06/2023 14:17

FrippertyFloof · 27/06/2023 13:59

I do find it strange that infanticide was rejected due to her age, background, concealing the pregnancy etc. There was a baby found in Aldershot in a similar situation and the mother was given community service.

This one. Baby had multiple skull fractures
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-57916495
”Babita Rai, 24, was found not guilty of murder but was convicted of infanticide following a trial at Winchester Crown Court in May.
Rai has already served 385 days in custody.
The court heard the child - named "Baby M" by police - had suffered skull fractures and blunt force injuries within hours of her birth on 15 May 2017.”

“Acknowledging the pregnancy would have brought great shame on you and your family in that society," he added.
"You kept the pregnancy a secret. You yourself were in denial that you were pregnant."
He said the "psychological trauma" Rai had been suffering was "brought to a head" when she gave birth.”

Very similar circumstances and with a fully mature woman.

Flowers at the scene

Mother sentenced for Aldershot park baby infanticide

Babita Rai, 24, was under "intolerable pressure" when she killed her newborn baby, a judge says.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-57916495

Newtrix · 27/06/2023 14:18

Libraryloiterer · 27/06/2023 07:52

I think the reason it was murder rather than infanticide was because the jury was satisfied that the act was premeditated.

And from a public protection point of view I would be extremely concerned about a young woman who has the capacity to stamp on a newborn's head. I have enormous sympathy for the terrifying situation this girl found herself in and I'm pleased to see others being so compassionate but I fail to see how the court could have imposed anything other than a significant custodial sentence. I'm as pro choice as they come (early as possible, as late as necessary) but once that infant has taken a breath outside of its mother's body it rightly has the full protection of the law.

I sincerely hope Paris gets intensive therapeutic support in prison and that she has many healthy years ahead of her when she is finally released.

100% agree with this.

AP5Diva · 27/06/2023 14:20

On that Aldershot case, the mothers memory was also not intact just like Mayo’s
”Addressing the jury, defence counsel Michael Turner QC said it was a "dreadfully, dreadfully sad case". "A lack of memory goes hand-in-hand with someone whose balance of mind was disturbed at the time of birth," he said.”

AgathaSpencerGregson · 27/06/2023 14:21

AP5Diva · 27/06/2023 12:43

You say that, but I’m doubting it. No way would a lawyer make such a rookie error so as to not understand the basic function of how courts at all tiers create law by their rulings in a common law system, to not know the principle of stare decisis such that every case doesn’t stand totally alone but there is a principle that similar circumstances and facts should result in similar convictions and sentence, and to not know about persuasive precedents and how they work.

Nor would they post a link to an Amazon textbook as if that supports anything they are saying.

For sane readers; the book is indeed available from Amazon, but was originally written by glanville Williams, an eminent legal academic, and is currently edited by Tony smith, formerly professor of criminal and public laws at Cambridge.
you are better off with that than the witterings if this poster, believe me 😂