Does anybody live in an eruv?

[namechange655]

How religiously observant/sociable do you have to be to fit in? What is the ratio of J:NJ in yours? Or alternatively, have you moved out of one and if so, why?
Thanks

We’re inside a NW London eruv. I didn’t even notice it for the first year or so! No one gives a shit what non-observers do, honestly.

Eric Morecambe was pretty well-known too.

It does feel like a circumnavigating of religious rules for convenience. It seems a peculiarity to impose a religious boundary around an area that contains Jewish and Non Jewish people. I can understand the OPs concerns. I too, would be wondering what it was all about and whether I would inadvertently cause offence or be judged. I appreciate that the poles and wires are barely visible, but nevertheless it is about one religious group imposing their religious ideology upon a public area. Even though they are not actually imposing their views on the non Jewish population there, it does nevertheless seem as though they have marked out their territory and put their own stamp on the area. That is going to inevitably cause some people to avoid moving into the community or feeling as though they are not a part of it or feel uncertain. As Eruvs are fairly new, they will encompass mixed communities, as many non Jewish people will have already lived there before the wires went up. Whether this continues or whether, gradually over time it alters the demographics one way or the other will be interesting to see.

I don't see an eruv as any different to the spire on a church, or the minarets on a mosque. You could argue that either of those constitutes imposing religious ideology on a public area.

I'm an atheist so it makes no difference to me. I go about my day and live my life as I choose. I respect other people's decisions to practice their religion, and expect the same in return by not judging me (at least openly!) for not sharing their beliefs.

I go in and out of the eruv regularly throughout the week, including Fridays after sunset. Absolutely no issues at all. A lot of people living in the eruv are not Jewish, because it covers quite a wide area, and some are totally unaware of it.

'I think we've established it's an anti-Semite being mischievous.'

In what way is the OP being racist here? She is asking legitimate questions and has not been disrespectful. To therefore label her this way is divisive! If everyone who asks genuine questions is labelled as being anti-Semitic, then people will stop asking questions. Either then they will not learn anything new, labour under false misconceptions or get the impression of a community or group being standoffish or judgemental. It's not helpful.

@WaterIrus

That's true re spires and temples. I suppose that they do also mark out an area and I had thought of that. This does feel a little different in terms of marking out a public area as being 'private' for the purposes of following religious ideology. Interesting to hear your experiences of living in one, so thank you.

But it's not about delineating a private area. The point of an eruv is that it's a line which signifies a ritual boundary. It doesn't stop people - including Jewish people - from walking in and out of it. All it does is allows observant - mainly orthodox - Jews to use prams, wheelchairs and so on, on Shabbos (Jewish sabbath) within that area. The main purpose of this is to make it easier to go to the synagogue.

It's not intended to mark out a Jewish vs non-Jewish area. By design an eruv will exist where there is a concentration of orthodox Jews - otherwise there would be no demand for it! But it's not intended to discourage non-Jews from visiting or living or working in that area.

In Manchester you wouldn't even know the eruv was there unless you knew to look for it.

I live near rather than inside. But I go in and out of that area regularly for work, travel and to visit friends (who aren't Jewish) who live within it.

It's really not a big thing (unless you are an orthodox Jew, in which case it will make life easier for you). For people who aren't Jewish it will make zero difference to your life and you wouldn't know it was there.

The closest analogy I can think of is a housing estate which has a wall around it, but the wall has many gaps for roads and footpaths. Going about your day to day life you wouldn't think "I'm going into the X housing estate", you'd just go through it and the fact that it's technically a housing estate with a wall around it makes zero difference to you. Not really the same though but the best I can think of - someone Jewish with a much better understanding will hopefully explain!!

I could go into that area of Manchester this morning, ask a randomer on the street within the eruv what they thought about it, and if they aren't Jewish the chances are the answer would be "what are you on about?". That's how unobtrusive and non-impactful it is if you aren't Jewish.

Last comment as I really must get on with some work! The eruv area here is big and it's just part of the outskirts of a city. The only sign that it's not quite the same as the rest of the city is that there are some buildings with Hebrew lettering and names, and orthodox Jews on the streets (only noticeable because they dress differently). But that's no different to visiting any ethnically diverse part of a city. I can say the same about going into Chinatown where business and banks have their names in English and in characters.

Non Jewish and have lived in several different eruvs around NW London. It has never once affected my life and my orthodox next door neighbours have never once judged me for driving and being and out and about on the sabbath.

I also have several Jewish friends who are not orthodox and they are often out on a Friday night, and as far as I’m aware, it’s never caused them any issues with their more orthodox neighbours.

Also, just to add, my next door neighbours are very observant and a popular couple in their synagogue. Their son isn’t that observant and I’d often see him driving late after a Friday night out or sitting on the drive chatting on his phone. Despite their son not living the same lifestyle whilst living under the same roof, they still seem very popular as within their community. They’re clearly not judged for it.

OP how can someone know your DH has Jewish ancestry?

From the name?

Oh come on, we'll be talking about yellow stars in a minute.

I live in an eruv. I'm surrounded by every flavour of Jewish affiliation and non affiliation and my neighbours on both sides aren't Jewish. They wouldn't know what an eruv is if you asked them and would have no idea they live within one. Not a single person gives a fig who does what in or out of the eruv - best summed up by a previous post describing the son of an observant family who sits in his car outside the house on Shabbat on his phone (his parents may not love that but again not because of the eruv!). The OP's husband is Jewish and isn't bothered about living 'near the boundary of an eruv'. This isn't surprising as every single person has pointed out it makes sod all difference!!

It doesn't mark out the area as being private, there aren't signs saying 'Jews only', it merely allows observant Jews to carry outside, so they aren't breaking the Sabbath. You wouldn't notice it, but those who need to are aware of the limit to the permitted area to carry out activities.

It’s not the ‘legitimate questions’, it’s the fact that the OP, when she was responding to posters pointing out that an eruv has zero impact on anyone other than those Orthodox Jews who choose to abide by rules about Shabbat carrying, and that therefore no one would be judging anyone, said her DH ‘had Hasidic ancestry’ and would therefore ‘be conspicuous’ when not being Shabbat-compliant. Some posters wondered whether this was an anti-Semite trying to stir up anecdotes about ‘Jewish-looking appearances’, or Jewish impositions of belief on shared public spaces. And was now being disappointed by the lack of froth.

This reminds me of a character in a Kingley Amis novel I read, who is convinced that he is surrounded by Jews trying to hide the fact. When someone new moves in the street, for example, he tries to 'Jewify' their names, pronouncing them in a cod 'Fagin' accent... 'Robinson? Hmm... Robinsohn... Rubinstein... Wilson? Wilsohn... Villstein...' etc. Amis himself claimed to hate antisemitism but often expressed ant-Jewish views.

The user name reminds me of the 'Strength through Oi' fascist skinhead thing in the 1970s.

It seems your DH is feeling guilty about not following ‘THE rules’ and be a practicing Jew

I think this is it. We are not Jewish now. My husbands family almost certainly was 100 years ago. Its a talking point now but nothing more. Occasionally people make assumptions, but why does that matter? People often make all kinds of assumptions

You were wrong about the lack of froth and you were completely wrong about the anti-semite suspicions as well because I never said that I was a gentile myself. Eruvs were new to me because they do not exist where my ancestors come from and I gather they have not been around for very long in the UK.

I already knew about the physical appearance of the eruv but I started the thread to understand the differing perceptions of non observance from within the community.

We are looking to move because we are not happy with where we live at the moment and we would like our children to be accepted within their community and to not feel excluded culturally or religiously because my DH has ditched the shtreimel tradition.
I did learn something from the more tolerant responses. Thank you to those posters.

But how would anyone on the thread know whether or not you were Jewish, @namechange655? Though I'm an Irish Catholic who only came into contact with Orthodox Judaism of any kind well into adulthood when living in north London, and found your questions about eruvin puzzling myself, and why exactly you thought your husband would be more 'conspicuous' than anyone else not abiding by Shabbat rules around an eruv in a presumably large, mixed city area.

Again, I can’t comment on it from a Jewish perspective, but as a non-Jew, we have never suffered any sort of exclusion from our neighbours. In fact, I’m a Muslim, and everywhere I’ve lived in NW London, whether with my parents when younger or with friends or now with my own family, we’ve been good friends with our observant Jewish neighbours. We’ve been to each other’s weddings, exchanged gifts at Christmas (although I only just realised that it’s a tad odd for a Muslim and a Jew to exchange gifts on a holiday which neither celebrate!), invite each other to parties, take the bins, helped each other in emergencies, etc.

I don’t know if there is a difference when you are Jewish, but as a Muslim who has often had Jewish neighbours, I have always been made to feel welcome. I’m moving shortly to a street where the majority of my neighbours will be Jewish. It’s going to be our long term home and my husband had the same concerns as yours before we bought the house (albeit from a non-Jew perspective). I basically laughed at his concerns because I found them so silly!

OP, I think people are being a bit weird and inflammatory about your question. I'm wondering if quite a few posters responding aren't Jewish (because not all seem to have a good understanding of an eruv).

I do understand your concerns. I'm Jewish and I've certainly experienced negative things as a result of not being as observant as other Jews around me think Jews should be. Jews, including the very observant ones, don't care one bit what non-Jews do. For the most part, they are likely to completely ignore them as they go about their day. But there can be a degree of microagression/chastisement/shaming when you are Jewish but not behaving 'Jewish enough' in certain spaces.

Personally, as an eruv is mostly about behaviour on Shabbat, and most very observant Jews are busy with lots of other things on the Shabbos, I can't imagine your dh would draw too much attention driving the car/whatever unless he is otherwise outwardly very 'Jewish' in appearance/dress. There are enough non-Jews going about their days doing all sorts of things, so I think he would likely blend in unless he tried not to. It wouldn't put me off a particular property, unless there is a sense that he feels he would need to observe it living within the eruv, which is a different issue.

But the OP didn't ask for Jewish people to respond, @mindutopia -- she asked for people who lived 'in an eruv' to say about their perceptions of numbers of Jewish vs non-Jewish inhabitants, and how observant you needed to be to fit in. People are mostly saying that being 'in an eruv' is pretty much a state of mind that is only relevant to those people for whom it is a key enabler for Shabbat carrying.