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Boris stands down as MP with immediate effect part 3

1000 replies

DuncinToffee · 18/06/2023 16:56

Tomorrow is the Commons vote on the Privileges Committee's findings that Boris Johnson deliberately misled Parliament over Downing Street parties during lockdown

The vote is a free vote rather than being whipped either way. Tories have been told that the vote will be a one-line whip, meaning they will not be obliged to participate.

Boris Johnson is believed to have advised his backers to not vote against it.

Michael Gove confirmed on live tv that he will abstain

Tobias Elwood has u-turned on abstaining after hearing stories from voters

Rishi Sunak, who knows

OP posts:
Thread gallery
32
itsgettingweird · 20/06/2023 20:41

I cannot believe you are comparing Shipman to Johnson.

The pandemic sadly killed people, as it did in many countries.

Agree with this.

The inquiry will draw opinions on how his actions did or didn't contribute to the number of deaths.

But Shipman was an out and out murderer - and proven as such.

Cornettoninja · 20/06/2023 20:42

cakeorwine · 20/06/2023 20:33

It seems another Minister is lying at the moment apparently about asylum statistics and has been asked several times to correct the record.

Maybe this is part of the reason Rishi was being so coy and Lilly-livered about yesterdays vote. This is far too close to the surface to escape scrutiny really.

itsgettingweird · 20/06/2023 20:43

IClaudine · 20/06/2023 20:10

Cake, show me all the PowerPoints you like, anecdotally though I can tell you I know keyworkers and it was not all 'one in the staffroom only at a time'. I don't doubt some places stuck to the rules to the letter, but many workplaces were more flexible

Did they stand up in Parliament and lie about it?

Workplaces couldn't be flexible.

At one point they were checking the health and safety of workplaces with high covid cases. I remember a factory that had this.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

itsgettingweird · 20/06/2023 20:45

Cornettoninja · 20/06/2023 20:19

anecdotally though I can tell you I know keyworkers

well I can tell you that I was a key worker (NHS, not frontline) and you know absolutely nothing.

Another keyworker here.

Stick to the rules.

Our workplace was a stickler for them having vulnerable service users.

We weren't allowed in the staff room, each bubble had separate toilets which staff shared with pupils,

Each bubble had a separate area which meant you didn't see some colleagues for months.

cakeorwine · 20/06/2023 20:46

Suella Braverman

Points of Order - Hansard - UK Parliament

Thangam Debbonaire
(Bristol West) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is about communication today between the shadow Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), and the Home Secretary. To give a quick recap, on Monday the Home Secretary gave what I understand to be inaccurate information to Parliament when she claimed that the asylum decision backlog is down by 17,000 since the Prime Minister’s statement.

That contradicts what the Home Office’s published statistics say; they seem to make it very clear that the “asylum initial decision backlog”—it uses those precise words—has increased from 131,292 to 137,583 for the main applicants since the end of November and from 160,919 to 172,758 for total applications in the first quarter, which is clearly an increase.

The shadow Home Secretary raised this with the Home Secretary first in the House on Monday, and the record was not corrected by the Home Secretary then or since, to my understanding. My right hon. Friend then wrote to the Home Secretary this morning.

Mr Deputy Speaker, have you received any notification from the Home Secretary of her intention to correct the record since Monday’s statement, and can you confirm that the ministerial code requires that

“Ministers should give accurate and truthful information to Parliament, correcting any inadvertent error at the earliest opportunity”?

Mr Deputy Speaker
(Mr Nigel Evans)
I thank the hon. Lady for forward notice of her point of order. In response to question No. 1, no; and to question No. 2, yes. However, as she knows—this has been noted before—Ministers are responsible for the content of their answers, and it is therefore not a matter for the Chair. Those on the Government Front Bench will have heard her concerns and the Table Office can advise further on how she and other Members may pursue the matter.

itsgettingweird · 20/06/2023 20:46

cakeorwine · 20/06/2023 20:35

I like Dawn Butler's contribution

We are honourable Members of Parliament. It is not just a title, but something we should hold dear. We should be honourable in what we do in this place. We should be honourable to the people we serve, because they have elected us. Democracy demands honourable conduct, and we have not seen much of that over the past few years. If we allow lies to go unchecked and deceit to become the norm, our democracy begins to crumble, and that is what has been happening.

We sit here time and time again and see Ministers coming to the Dispatch Box. We all stand up and say, “That is not true, that is not true”, and we are told that we are not allowed to say that. We have to say, “They have inadvertently misled the House and they will have to come back to the House to correct the record”, but they never come back. T
They tell a lie, they sit down with a goofy grin on their face, they walk out and they never come back to correct the record, and that is a problem for our democracy.This House must be able to speak truth to power. Honourable Members of this House must be able to stand up and say, “That is incorrect”, otherwise what is the point or the purpose?

We must also not be so obsessed with the archaic rules of this House. We must be honest with ourselves and say, “We have got to challenge the rules of this House if they are not working.” We have to challenge the system of this House if it is not working. It is a nonsense that in this House we cannot call somebody a liar if they are lying. People say, “It will degrade the House and everyone will be calling each other a liar.”

If people do not want to be called a liar, do not lie—tell the truth. That is the solution to the problem. The truth must prevail and integrity must be restored. All Members of this House are guardians of our democracy, and I am sorry, but we are not doing a good job; we must do much better, and this report does bring some of that back to us.

Yes she was absolutely brilliant. I watched her thinking she could lead the Labour Party one day and I'd vote for her.

She even handled her "I told you so" moment with such poise and dignity.

Cornettoninja · 20/06/2023 20:49

@cakeorwine there were some genuinely really good speeches in the debate yesterday. I don’t know how anyone could claim to uphold democracy and our system of government and not applaud the sentiments expressed by some MP’s. Regardless of for or against the committee findings, the expression of what holding the position of member of parliament means was fortifying to hear expressed so passionately by many.

The same sentiment was notably missing from the speeches of JRM and ilk and much more intent on obscuring the points of their peers.

cakeorwine · 20/06/2023 20:53

The archaicness of Parliament

Yvette Cooper
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. This is specific to a sentence in the Home Secretary’s statement and her answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Neil Coyle). It is a factual issue. She said that
“the asylum initial decision backlog is down by 17,000”
whereas Home Office official statistics say that the asylum initial backlog is now over 170,000, up from 160,000 in December. The facts are that the asylum initial decision backlog is up by over 10,000, not down by 17,000. I know that there was a lot of nonsense in what the Home Secretary said, and sometimes it is hard to know where to start, but this is about the facts given to Parliament. Will she now withdraw the incorrect statement that she has made, because her facts are wrong?

Madam Deputy Speaker
Let us remember that this is not a continuation of a debate; it is a point of order to the Chair, and it is not a matter for the Chair. The way in which facts are presented here in the Chamber is entirely—[Interruption.] Who is shouting at me? The way in which facts are presented in the Chamber is entirely a matter for the Minister, or any other Member who is presenting the facts. If the Home Secretary wishes to say anything further to the point of order—[Interruption.] She does not. [Interruption.] No, that is enough. This is not a matter for the Chair and we cannot continue the debate. It is a matter of debate and interpretation of statistics. I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) for drawing her concerns to the attention of the House, the Chair and, indeed, the Home Secretary.

Sir Chris Bryant
Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I think this is a matter for the Chair. Will you confirm that the ministerial code states that a Minister must always present the facts as they believe them to be true? However, sometimes, inadvertently, Ministers make mistakes, and there is a proper process for correcting the record. It may be that the Home Secretary, when she gets back to her office, will realise that the Home Office statistics are not quite as she has presented them to the House. If so, there are means of correcting the record, and you can confirm that to her.

Madam Deputy Speaker
That is a point of order for the Chair, and I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for it. There are indeed means of correction, and I think all Ministers in the House are well aware of that. Indeed, it is open to any Member to correct the record if they consider that a mistake has been made.

Sir Chris Bryant
No.
Madam Deputy Speaker
I take a point of order from the hon. Gentleman and he wants to argue with me! It is not a matter of argument; anyone can correct the record. However, what he said is absolutely correct: when a Minister is delivering complicated statistics provided by a Department, and it transpires that there is a mistake—I have no idea whether on this occasion there is such a discrepancy—there is a procedure for correcting that.

Illegal Migration - Hansard - UK Parliament

RafaistheKingofClay · 20/06/2023 20:55

It’s not very often I feel positive about the state of politics in this country at the moment but there were plenty of good speeches and from both sides of the floor.

There are still enough MPs who know what the right thing to do is and will sometimes do it when it matters.

RafaistheKingofClay · 20/06/2023 20:58

Thanks cakeandwine I was just about to try and dig out what it was that was lied about when Laing started talking about it being up to ministers to decide how to present facts.

cakeorwine · 20/06/2023 21:00

I like More or Less - because it teaches you to ask exactly what statistics someone is referring to

The total asylum initial decision backlog has increased since December - Full Fact

Home Office data shows the number of applications awaiting an initial decision has actually increased since the Prime Minister Rishi Sunak outlined a five-point plan to tackle the asylum backlog in December 2022.

The Home Office has since clarified that the 17,000 figure refers to the backlog of initial decisions relating to asylum applications made before 28 June 2022, though this wasn’t made clear in Ms Braverman’s comments

After being challenged on her claim by Labour MPs later in the debate, Ms Braverman said: “We are on track to deliver on reducing the backlog of initial decisions and the legacy backlog. Those are decisions that have been waiting in the system up until July or June last year. Those are the backlogs that we are working on.”

You always have to know what statistics someone is referring to

The total asylum initial decision backlog has increased since December - Full Fact

The home secretary’s claim that the backlog is down by 17,000 refers only to applications made before 28 June 2022.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/braverman-asylum-initial-decision-backlog/

cakeorwine · 20/06/2023 21:04

Another lie from Johnson

On 24 November 2021, at Prime Minister’s questions, the then Prime Minister said that“now, almost a month after furlough ended, there are more people in work than there were before the pandemic began.”—[Official Report, 24 November 2021; Vol. 704, c. 344.]

That statement was untrue. The monthly employment statistics at that time showed that there were over half a million fewer people in employment than there were before the pandemic began, and total employment remained lower than before the pandemic until this month’s employment statistics.

The former Prime Minister made the same untrue claim on 15 December 2021, then again on 5 January 2022 —when he said it three times—and then on 12 January and 19 January 2022.

On 1 February 2022, the director general for regulation at the Office for Statistics Regulation wrote to the director of data science at 10 Downing Street to point out that that repeated claim was untrue.

The Prime Minister repeated the claim again on 2 February, and again on 23 February 2022.

I thought at first that the Prime Minister might have just misunderstood the numbers. It was true, as he claimed on a number of occasions, that the number of people on payrolls was higher than before the pandemic, but that was because a lot of self-employed people gave up self-employment during the pandemic or afterwards and became employees on payrolls instead.
The letter from the director general having had no impact, the then chair of the UK Statistics Authority, Sir David Norgrove, wrote to the Prime Minister on 24 February 2022
“Dear Prime Minister…it is wrong to claim that there are now more people in work than before the pandemic began: the increase in the number of people who are on payrolls is more than offset by the reduction in the number of people who are self-employed.”
At the Liaison Committee in March 2022, I asked the then Prime Minister whether he accepted that correction in Sir David Norgrove’s letter.

His reply was not straightforward, but the transcript of the meeting shows that Mr Johnson understood fully and clearly what had happened in the labour market—he did not misunderstand the figures—and he also accepted that employment was in fact lower than before the pandemic. He said that he was going to correct the record on that point, which he did not do, but he did recognise that his claim had been mistaken.

Despite that, Mr Johnson subsequently carried on making the claim. He said it again the next month, on 20 April and on 27 April.

In his final Question Time as Prime Minister on 20 July last year, he said, despite knowing well that it was untrue,

“We have more people in paid employment than at any time in the history of this country.”—[Official Report, 20 July 2022; Vol. 718, c. 951.]
My conclusion from all of this, which I think sheds some light on the events covered by the report, is that Mr Johnson just is not interested in whether a statement is true or not. He is a clever man—he thinks quite hard about what he plans to say—but the criterion, “Is this true?” is not an important consideration for him.

I remember those stats - and every time he said it, I wanted the Speaker to tell him not to lie.

BunnyBettChetwynnd · 20/06/2023 21:19

England's former chief medical officer Dame Sally Davies was close to tears at the Covid Inquiry as she apologised to families bereaved by the pandemic.

The former chief medical officer told the inquiry the UK did not have plans in place to cope with a Covid pandemic, but she added "it didn't have resilience either".

Compared with similar countries, the UK was at the bottom of the table for numbers of doctors, nurses, beds, IT units and ventilators per 100,000, she said.

The British Medical Association said Mr Osborne's "denial" of a connection between austerity and the impact of the pandemic on the most vulnerable was "staggering".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65962091

Prof Dame Sally Davies

Covid Inquiry: Former chief medical officer close to tears over pandemic deaths

Dame Sally Davies apologises to bereaved families and says the UK was poorly prepared for the pandemic.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65962091

TheCrystalPalace · 20/06/2023 21:35

Apologies if this has been mentioned before but has Ian Blackford (who was asked to leave the HoC chamber for refusing to withdraw an assertion that Boris Johnson was misleading Parliament) received an apology?

TooBigForMyBoots · 20/06/2023 21:37

Can we all please have a bit of consideration for delicate sensibilities of our Tory and Johnson supporting posters. I understand those who missed out on important family occasions and being with their loved ones in their last days and weeks are upset. As are our underpaid, overworked, unappreciated, PTSD suffering HCPs.

But come on, we all know who the real victims are: the Tory/Johnson faithful. Much maligned for their helpful advice that those those suffering "get over it" and "move on" they face a constant barrage of discrimination making them the Most Oppressed People Ever. MOPEs lack basic knowledge of culture, a sense of reality humour and are extremely thin skinned.

So I would urge you to stop with your common use of speech and humour as it causes immense hurt and difficulty for them at this time.❄️

Zonder · 20/06/2023 21:39

TheCrystalPalace · 20/06/2023 21:35

Apologies if this has been mentioned before but has Ian Blackford (who was asked to leave the HoC chamber for refusing to withdraw an assertion that Boris Johnson was misleading Parliament) received an apology?

Good question.

DuncinToffee · 20/06/2023 21:52

BREAKING: Cabinet Office cannot name any previous Minister or former Minister that has ever had legal bill paid by taxpayers for “Parliamentary Inquiry”. ⁦@RishiSunak⁩ set a precedent forcing British taxpayer to pay Johnsons 250K lawyers bill.

https://twitter.com/KarlTurnerMP/status/1671246516416126976?s=20

OP posts:
Notonthestairs · 20/06/2023 22:08

DuncinToffee · 20/06/2023 21:52

BREAKING: Cabinet Office cannot name any previous Minister or former Minister that has ever had legal bill paid by taxpayers for “Parliamentary Inquiry”. ⁦@RishiSunak⁩ set a precedent forcing British taxpayer to pay Johnsons 250K lawyers bill.

https://twitter.com/KarlTurnerMP/status/1671246516416126976?s=20

Using taxpayers money as their own personal bank.

I suppose Sunak thought he'd be able to keep Johnson on a tight leash if he (or rather we) were picking up the tab.

IClaudine · 20/06/2023 22:30

Interesting tweet from Chris Bryant. To finish business so early is not normal. This is not a functioning government.

Another day when the Commons ends business before 16.30. As a former Conservative cabinet minister said to me earlier, ‘it’s unsustainable. It’s time for a general election.’

Blossomtoes · 20/06/2023 22:35

They’re just fire fighting now. An election is well overdue.

TomPinch · 20/06/2023 22:48

I actually wouldn't have an issue with Johnson having his legal fees paid - except I guess he's the first MP who has insisted on having a lawyer to hold his hand and the previous ones did without one.

TomPinch · 20/06/2023 22:59

About twelve hours ago I wasted valuable time and energy, that I'll never get back, arguing with some halfwits on Youtube who thought Harman's reply to Rees-Mogg was evasive.

They were banging on about the "Hoffman test". It's a judicial decision that concerns when a judge must be recused due to apparent bias.

Rees-Mogg basically applied that test to Parliamentary procedure and the more I think about it the more screwy that is. The case had nothing to do with it. Furthermore, every MP is a member of a political party. They would all have apparent bias, so the test would be unworkable in Parliament. I think he knows this and is deliberately throwing shade on the committee, just for politics or even vindictiveness.

I'm not particularly left wing, but I really hate people like JRM. They hold themselves out as the custodians of traditional values and the upholders of British institutions like Parliament while breaking all the rules to dog-whistle to their halfwitted followers. They are wreckers.

Kiwano · 20/06/2023 23:01

Rhondaa · 20/06/2023 19:34

Cake, show me all the PowerPoints you like, anecdotally though I can tell you I know keyworkers and it was not all 'one in the staffroom only at a time'. I don't doubt some places stuck to the rules to the letter, but many workplaces were more flexible.

I'll say it again, if Johnson was knowingly breaking rules they wouldn't have had the professional photographer taking pics, they wouldn't have had notebooks and emails full of arrangements. They'd have been secretive.

At worst he was very naive and should've had someone keeping an eye on unelected civil servants.

I think you underestimate Johnson's sheer arrogance. He's lied all his life, he thought the rules didn't apply to him, and he thought that if he was found out he could just bluster and faff and lie again and again, and he would get away with it because he's Boris and he's just entitled to do what he wants. It's the pattern detected by that Eton housemaster coming out again and again. That's why he thought he could get away with sending everyone out to lie about Pincher and that he could still hang on whilst ministers were resigning in droves, and that's why he was so furious when he finally reached the end of the road with the Standards Committee.

Kiwano · 20/06/2023 23:11

Oh, can we persuade someone to refer Braverman's lies to the Standards Committee? Her attitude to the truth is increasingly similar to Johnson's, she needs to be stopped in her tracks.

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