Mum sentenced to 28 months in prison for abortion pills

[mumoftwobarnyboys]

Used after the cut off point of 10 weeks.

Regardless of how far gone she was, surely this isn't right?

It is her body, despite me morally really thinking what she did was very wrong.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/12/woman-in-uk-jailed-for-28-months-over-taking-abortion-pills-after-legal-time-limit?CMP=twtgu&utmmsource=Twitter&utmmedium=&s=08#Echobox=1686577294

I think the conflicted response is perfectly normal. It’s certainly mine,anyway

The biggest issue for me is that she is a mother of three. So she has been through everything, feeling the baby moves, seen how the fetus looks like at like 20 +weeks, etc. It's not unknown to her. She knew exactly what the baby looks like at 32 weeks. They are fully formed, little human, not a multiplied blob of cells anymore that can't survive outside.

I think this is an incredibly sensitive and tragic topic.

I think in this case the law has been correctly archaic but even the name of the offense 'destruction of a child' to my mind is archaic.

A foetus obviously has a continuous spectrum of development and the point at which the foetus has the right of life i.e. abortion becomes illegal is a matter of contentious debate.

When does a foetus become human? It could be argued that an embryo has rights in that in time it will become a human being and therefore should not be destroyed. In the UK this argument is very much a minority one However the threshold point for abortion it could be argued has to take into account neuroscience to assess whether the foetus has sentience as well as the public morality about the exact point a foetus is developed enough to be a human in the sense they have full right to life to an extent

There will never be an absolute answer to these questions

What I would say despite the elements of obvious criminality in this case a fundamental point is that a woman has been imprisoned for an abortion. What signal does that send to women about the morality of the act of abortion itself? An isolated and tragic case such as this will be used as an argument for those to those that are pro life to show that courts agree with the moral wrong of terminating a pregnancy and extrapolate that argument to earlier gestation periods . Is termination of any age foetus ' destruction of a child'

I think a custodial sentence wasnt required as it was not in the public interest however a suspended sentence coupled with counselling and enforced involvement of social services may have been more appropriate.

If she went through all of that and still couldn't love the baby, what kind of life would it have had with her?

How did they determine gestation during the autopsy if they didn't recover the body?

I doubt she was desperate or in panic. She seems to have known for a long time a out the pregnancy and planned this abortion. The lies and scheming would indicate she knew what she was up to. At this late stage the baby would have to be birthed anyway, she could simply have given birth and put it up for adoption.

Prison is so wrong here

Para 18 states there were no additional aggravating features.

Para19 discusses her choice to move in with a man who was not the father during lockdown and from whom she was attempting to conceal the pregnancy. This was noted as contributing to her emotional turmoil.

Judge was v clear that the role of the courts was to uphold the law, and that those who wanted the law changed (whether liberalising or restricting) need to lobby Parliament for the changes they want, not approach the courts.

a fundamental point is that a woman has been imprisoned for an abortion. What signal does that send to women about the morality of the act of abortion itself?

But it should be, imo, if they have passed certain point. That's why the law exist. Doesn't it? So when does the limit extend to? If the woman decided a day before a due date to abort because of whatever reason, reasonable or not, should it be allowed?

Any abortion over 22 weeks is illegal, she was 32 weeks , a viable baby, not a feotus, a baby that she killed! I just cannot fathom what must have gone on in that woman’s head to get to that stage in her pregnancy and do what she did. Just awful, that poor baby!

My youngest was born at 31 weeks, I find it hard to stomach

No, it isn't. And even for 'social reasoning', it's 24 weeks, not 22 weeks

The vast majority of 32 week preterm babies need no breathing support. By 34 weeks they have a fair chance of sucking well enough to feed for themselves. They have a grasp reflex. They recognise the sound of familiar voices. They feel pain. This wasn't someone who got confused over a couple of weeks (which was what some of the initial reporting sounded like). This is someone who deliberately killed a (probably) healthy foetus well past the point of viability.

She deserves what she got. Fully

So very sad she didn’t continue with the pregnancy and have the baby adopted.

But it doesn’t feel like a very well thought out plan.

Genuine question: were abortion services restricted in access during the pandemic? I can certainly see why people thought they were (which may have had a knock on effect if people thought they were restricted, as we were all told to die of something else rather than go to the doctors and seek help for anything other than Covid) but were they actually reduced? I say this because my experience was v different and I had both a smear test and non-emergency tooth removal in the middle of lockdown (I may have been very very lucky).

She can’t blame lock down because that happened on March 23rd she had the baby approx 7/8 weeks after at 32 weeks pregnant mid May, so she would have been 24 week pregnant at lockdown and could have obtained doctors advice prior to that.

Where I worked they seldom did abortion over 22 weeks as baby’s have been born at 23 weeks and survived. That’s my experience, it may be legal to 24 weeks but I don’t think it’s done very often.

This is still murder

@grapehyacinthisactuallyblue

There is always going to be an element of subjectivity in the extremely sensitive discussion about the threshold point for abortion.

There is a lot here I find tragic and yes the gut reaction is that there is a moral wrong (as well as sadness).

However this case has highlighted the fact that under certain conditions abortion is illegal and the consequences judicially can be very severe. The case luckily is an extremely rare one and I hope the law won't be tested in this regard frequently but the point is a woman who terminated a foetus has committed a criminal act in harming the foetus. We could if we wished extrapolate from that that harming any foetus is a criminal act if you were of that disposition.

I find the whole case distressing but I think thought should be given to the fact that abortion is linked to criminality that could lead to a significant prison sentence.

Poor baby. Baby was viable. She had adequate time to seek a termination before lockdown. Very sad outcome. Now those poor children have an incarcerated parent.

No happy endings here.

I agree with this!

I had a stillbirth at 26 weeks, and the very thought of ending a life of a baby deliberately makes me want to vomit.

I think the sentence is just and fair.

I think custody is absolutely awful. So so wrong. I get it was awful but so many people get a suspended sentence so she should have for the sake of her three children.

I must not be fully pro choice either as this is how i feel , that poor baby , i hope it felt no pain .
This whole thread has really made me think about abortion and despite considering myself pro life i realise that i have a cut off which i'm now not sure what that is .
I cannot imagine the horror of doing what she did ,i don't think i could forgive this.