Mum sentenced to 28 months in prison for abortion pills

[mumoftwobarnyboys]

Used after the cut off point of 10 weeks.

Regardless of how far gone she was, surely this isn't right?

It is her body, despite me morally really thinking what she did was very wrong.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/12/woman-in-uk-jailed-for-28-months-over-taking-abortion-pills-after-legal-time-limit?CMP=twtgu&utmmsource=Twitter&utmmedium=&s=08#Echobox=1686577294

Bemused? Really? You can’t accept that the word “murder” might have a meaning attached to it that isn’t necessarily a legal one. i.e peoples understanding of the word and the connotations attached to it. Many people confuse manslaughter and murder.

Not everyone has a law degree. What they mean is they think it is equal to murder, giving murder its natural meaning (taking a life) and not necessarily looking at its legal meaning. I don’t think it’s a surprise that a lay person, without a legal background might consider this a form of murder.

@AgathaSpencerGregson actually if you look at the OED definition of murder, it is not the same as the legal definition.

murder
/ˈməːdə/

See definitions in:
All
Crime
Zoology
Sport · Informal
noun

1. 1.
2. the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Are we seriously disputing, in the context of legal proceedings, that it’s the legal definition of murder (which has never extended to the foetus in the womb) that’s the material one?
God almighty. It says something for the state of this thread that that’s not even the maddest point on here.

Thanks for starting the thread OP. I’ve been on holiday so only seen this on the news today and have been deeply unsettled by the ruling.

I do not believe it should be a criminal offence to have an abortion at any point and I have deep seated concerns for the consequences this could have for home access abortion healthcare.

I am in the apparent minority that is fully pro choice, abortion for any reason at any time.

As an ICU nurse it alarms me that 1) a letter from physicians was regarded as a pressure group and 2) for the precedence this could place on HCPs in the UK to enforce outdated and archaic laws.

What happened in the US, and in Poland is I fear headed our way.

No one should have access to a home abortion without being seen by a medical professional before and after. It's an absolutely awful idea

Nobody is disputing the context of legal proceedings.

Honestly some people just sound like pedantic know it all’s peddling their knowledge of the law.

Murder is both a criminal offence AND a word within the English language.

Whilst I despair at the attitude some on here have towards a viable, nearly fully grown baby, it's not murder. She wouldn't have got such a short sentence for murder.

A couple of things I guess. Murder, manslaughter...legal definitions, I don have a law degree. Ethically I feel this murder, in the daily English language sense. I do not have legal background to be able to judge how long sentence should have been, what her particular circumstances were. Personally I feel it is lenient as we are talking about a viable human being being killed intentionally, with a plan, where she could have terminated way earlier. However I dont feel it is right this is so minimised in some people’s heads, especially those saying oh she just took a pill, it was an extension of her body, up until the baby exits the birth canal it is an extension and has zero rights and can be killed any minute.

Totally agree, lawyer here and don’t get too upset about people on MN misunderstanding the definition and application of offences. I personally think this is akin to murder and the sentence should reflect that. I also really struggle with the notion that anyone capable of such an offence should be in charge of young children.

You know this isn't the first time a woman had been convicted of this? It's not a new law, and its certainly not the only time it's been enforced. The only reason it's in the news so much is because she took advantage of an opportunity created by covid.

Totally agree, lawyer here and don’t get too upset about people on MN misunderstanding the definition and application of offences. I personally think this is akin to murder and the sentence should reflect that.

I cannot see how the two sentences I've bolded can possibly go together in the same paragraph. How can you be a lawyer and not understand sentencing? Even if your practice is non criminal, you surely understand a judge can't sentence for murder when the charge and conviction isn't murder?

You understand what the word “akin” means?

I am allowed a personal view.

@Labtastic i understand that sentence was not available to the judge, that doesn’t mean I agree with the sentencing guidelines for this offence.

IMO the sentence should be equal to a murder sentence.

Thats my opinion. Not my interpretation of sentencing guidelines. MN seems to have a hard time grasping that it’s possible to disagree with the criminal justice system…

As a HCP would you carry out an abortion if the woman had changed her mind at 39 weeks? While the woman’s cervix was dilating? You would kill a baby that was about to be born?

Agreed

It's dangerous, I don't know how anyone could think it's OK. Women could die, yet no one arguing for it seems to have thought about that

Amongst many, this is a good point about “abortion for any reason at any time” I appreciate those late stage abortions would be few and far between, but what a thing to have to do as a medical professional. I’m not sure there are many people who could actually do it

There are, but they are absolutely not the kind of people you'd want anywhere near a hospital.

The West's had a 'sideline' of performing illegal late abortions.

Shudder

Drs are supposed to do no harm. Few would want to kill a fully developed term infant.

Exactly. I imagine that HCPs will perform late abortions if the baby has a life-limiting condition, or if the mother’s health/life is at risk beciase they can professionally justify it, but I doubt very much any of them will be prepared to do the same to a fully developed infant just because a woman has changed her mind about wanting to be a parent.

The 24 week rule is there for a very good reason and it should be respected. This woman’s sentence needs to put a message out to the public that these actions are not okay.

Name changed here for obvious reasons.

I do actually work within abortion services. And I can guarantee that if abortion as late as necessary came in as the poster you quoted wants it would actually significantly reduce abortion access for all. Very few staff who currently work within this area would chose to continue.

I don't believe those who say they would want this understand what would actually be involved, and how utterly traumatising that would be for the staff and the women. Dealing with a TOP in 24+ weeks is heartbreaking, but as it stands at the moment you know its for significant medical reasons with the fetus. Having to do that (& the way it would have to be done with some gestations) for a completely healthy, viable fetus would be very damaging mentally. I wonder if my colleague who works in ICU would be willing to come in and do it?

The current time frame for abortions as it stands in the UK I am perfectly happy with. I do believe it should be decriminalised and the current need for 2 Doctors signatures is not necessary IMO, but I do not want the timescales to change. They are generous compared to many other European countries and give women plenty of time to consider their options. 24 weeks as the current age of viability is totally appropriate IMO.

We do still offer postal packs, and I'm happy we still do. For women who have limited transport options or who live rurally it is hugely beneficial. All women ARE fully assessed and a comprehensive history obtained. A scan is not routinely offered to everyone, only when certain issues are raised. There are strict criteria we have to follow to offer postal packs, and very few women actually are eligible for them (IME). This woman lied repeatedly in order to access this service, there are many reasons why a scan would be offered - she obviously was prepared about what answers she would give.

The thing is as well, there are next to no circumstances where a viable healthy babies are aborted to save the mothers life even. They'd just induce or do a c section. In the case of a sudden cardiac arrest etc, baby comes out immediately, and fab if it survives, but mum is the priority.

Mum is priority if her life is at risk yes. Not because you are in the middle of labour and start saying you dont want to push and you don't want the baby any longer. You would have to deliver the baby .... weather you want to give your baby up after delivery is another matter.

The poster who said something along the lines of its questionable that mum is in charge looking after 3 other DC is correct. It's a very odd tale here.

There was a case at work recently (my job involves be working in a maternity department) where a woman who was 30 weeks pregnant just suddenly collapsed after a routine scan and went into cardiac arrest. The obstetricians/midwives were doing CPR and giving treatment to try and reverse the arrest, but it quickly became clear that mother couldn’t be saved so an emergency c-section was performed in the scanning room and the baby was ran across to the neonatal unit.

Although the mother obviously died the baby survived.

It was absolutely tragic for all involved and most of the staff involved required a lot of emotional support and counselling.

I don’t know if the father was there to consent to the section or whether the doctors took the choice upon themselves in the best interests of the baby but it was incredibly distressing.

The poster who said something along the lines of its questionable that mum is in charge looking after 3 other DC is correct. It's a very odd tale here.

That was me - I really don’t see how anyone is arguing this woman should be kept of prison to care for her children.
A women who is capable of
killing a healthy baby that close to birth should not be in charge of children.

@RedRosette2023 excellent point I absolutely agree. I think the posters shouting "pro choice" need to consider this crucial point I don't even think its appropriate to be saying "pro choice" in a situation like this. It's barbaric.

Pro choice is surely for very early terminations, not the ending the life of what could be a functioning human being, fully formed with a nervous system capable of feeling pain in a very real way.

The mother called an ambulance which showed it was a far from straightforward event because of the size of the child.